THE SYNCREATE PODCAST: EMPOWERING CREATIVITY
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY, AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY, AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
EPISODE 116: CREATIVE SPARK SERIES - CREATIVITY, POWER & AGENCY
WITH MELINDA ROTHOUSE & CHARLOTTE GULLICK
listen to the audio podcast here:
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO VERSION HERE:
In this episode of our Creative Spark Series, Melinda & Charlotte explore questions of power and agency, and how they connect with creativity and creative empowerment. We explore power dynamics, focusing on power with (collaboration), power to (personal empowerment), and power within (personal agency and efficacy). These ways of understanding our personal power (as opposed to the traditional hierarchical model of power over, or domination), can help us take positive, creative action to be of benefit to others and to the world, even when we may be feeling powerless. This episode, like the mini-episodes that preceded it, also includes insights from our book, Syncreate: A Guide to Navigating the Creative Process for Individuals, Teams, and Communities.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to consider your own creative empowerment, and how you could take action on it in a meaningful way in your life, either through collaboration, or in simply embracing your creative identity.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in
Episode 104: Creativity Can Save Your Life
Episode 108: Breaking the Glass Ceiling in Our Minds
Episode 114: The Role of the Artist in Society
At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, please reach out to us. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information here on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes.
Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate.
If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review!
We’d love to hear your feedback as well, so drop us a line at [email protected].
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to consider your own creative empowerment, and how you could take action on it in a meaningful way in your life, either through collaboration, or in simply embracing your creative identity.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in
Episode 104: Creativity Can Save Your Life
Episode 108: Breaking the Glass Ceiling in Our Minds
Episode 114: The Role of the Artist in Society
At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, please reach out to us. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information here on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes.
Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate.
If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review!
We’d love to hear your feedback as well, so drop us a line at [email protected].
EPISODE-SPECIFIC HYPERLINKS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Creativity is also consistently named one of the top skills of the 21st century, especially with the advent of AI. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. What holds us back? Why do we get stuck? And how can we fully embrace our creativity?
We talk with visionaries and changemakers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business. We aim to illuminate the creative process from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life.
Charlotte: I'm Charlotte Gullick, and I'm a writer, educator, and writing coach. Melinda and I are the co-authors of a book on the creative process, also called Syncreate. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you're not sure how to get it off the ground, visit us at syncreate.org.
Our book, now available in both print and audiobook format, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help bring your work to the world.
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Syncreate podcast and our Creative Sparks, where we just talk about a really important idea and these little nuggets that we hope that you enjoy.
Today, we're going to talk about creativity, power and agency and, noting that we may feel powerless right now and helpless against harmful geopolitical forces, but we have more power than we realize. And so, as we jump into this, I just want to say, I think that our lack of standing under our... sorry, our lack of understanding about power as individuals and as a culture is the core issue.
Melinda: Okay. Alright. (Laughter)
Charlotte: So, like, you know, the training that I've had on power, it's just blown me away that why don't we talk about it more? And I know that we both have different… I think powerful analogies… for me, I think of power like the wind. You can't see it per se, but it touches everything. And then it's hard to catch. So, I'm really excited about what we're going to talk about.
Melinda: Yes. So on this conversation about power, I know we've both done different trainings over the years and kind of looked into this in different ways. So, I recently gave a presentation at a conference where I was, you know, talking to a group of academics about like, what is the power that we have as researchers and academics, particularly when we're sort of under siege at the moment? As far as grants being taken away and that kind of thing. So, there's different types of power and power dynamics.
There's kind of the traditional power over, that might first come to mind when we think about power, which is kind of power by domination. One person having power over another or over a group, or an entire society. There's other kinds of power, too. There's power with…
Charlotte: With! What?!
Melinda: (Laughter) What?
Charlotte: I think that we’re so used to hierarchy that… there are other kinds of power?
Melinda: There are other kinds of power. Yeah.
Charlotte: Please tell more.
Melinda: So, power with, is collaboration. What can we do together? How can we join our efforts together in an empowering way to maybe do more than any one of us could do on our own? That's the power of the group, right? Then there's power to. Which is like, personal empowerment. Like, just feeling like, “Oh, we do have some kind of agency, you know. We can make a difference individually and together.” And then there's power within, which is like, personal agency and efficacy.
And so, those are kind of the ones - those last three - kind of the ones that I'm interested in talking more about today. And I think the sort of takeaway here, is that we each have more power than we realize. We may feel disempowered in various ways, particularly if we are a member of a marginalized group in society. Then we have to remember, look at those first people who stood up for the civil rights movement, right? Or for women's rights. Or LGBTQ. Whatever it might be.
Like, somebody starts and then other people go, “Oh, wow. Like, they stood up and did something. Maybe we can do it too. Maybe we can change the laws around this. Maybe we can change people's minds around this.” And, you know, it's like, that one person has to start the ball rolling, and then other people feel more empowered to also do something, say something, come together.
Charlotte: And I believe that the people who are in the power positions of power over, part of the reason that they are successful in maintaining that is that the small people, let's say, there's a consistent narrative that, “We don't have power. And if I internalize that, then I don't have a choice, I don't have agency, and then I'm less likely to stand up or to reach out to ask someone else to be brave together.” So, I think that's really important. Is teasing out the narratives around, do we have any independent individual power, inside our own minds?
And you know, of course, this is an oversimplification, and I think it's a good opportunity for people to learn how to do a power analysis, which, again, is what do we don't like. What is my power in this situation?
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: And maybe I have more power than other people in the situation. So I'm going to be the one that speaks up.
Melinda: Yes.
Charlotte: Like, for example, when my daughter was in elementary school and there was an issue with the teacher, there were other parents who were having… that were pretty frustrated with the teacher, but they weren't in a position to speak up. And that's where I’m like, “Oh, I’m…“ -
Melinda: “It’s me. I’m on deck.”
Charlotte: - “I can do that.”
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: I have the things in place, that the stakes are lower for me to speak up. I can listen to other people. And so I think, you know, teasing out those little differences. What? What is it? “Oh, I can't do anything in the situation. Oh, maybe I have some more latitude in my life… positionality, that I can be the one to stand up.”
Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I can.
Melinda: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And just kind of back to what you were talking about before, you know, this myth that we don't have any power, or this narrative that we don't have any power… I was just, over the weekend, I watched Becoming, the documentary about Michelle Obama and her book and book tour, and all that about her life, really. And you know, at one point she was saying that, you know, a lot of people don't have a seat at the table. And that she was in a position as a black woman and as the first lady to have a seat at pretty much every table that one could have a seat at, more or less.
And once she got there, she looked around the table and realized, these people aren't any smarter or any more talented. A lot of these people don't even know why they're sitting at this table in the first place. But it's just a result of privilege, right? And like, you know, a lot of us feel like, “Well, who are we to claim our power in some way?” But again, you know, those who are in charge and in control, how did they get that way? By asserting their power or by simply stepping into the power that their lineage or their legacy handed to them, you know. And just having confidence to claim it. A lot of times when they don't necessarily deserve it.
Charlotte: Right. Or the have the qualifications. They have the confidence, but not the qualifications.
Melinda: Right. Right.
Charlotte: That makes me think about something I read - and we may have talked about it before - but in the Obama administration, in the Oval Office, they would have meetings. And the women made an agreement that if one woman suggested something and an idea, that another woman would repeat it.
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: Because, you know, the studies show that if a woman endorses an idea, that it either gets dismissed or somebody else later down the line claims it. So, it was a specific strategy of power within power to empower women.
Melinda: Great.
Charlotte: You know, like, all of those to overcome, kind of like, how steeped we are in hierarchies.
Melinda: Yeah. And how the institutions that, you know, we find ourselves in, how they reaffirm that, right? So, for example, Iceland just passed a law that makes it illegal to pay women less than men. Illegal.
Charlotte: And they've been ahead on this issue.
Melinda: Oh, yeah. They’re very progressive. They've been… they’re champions of women's rights. But just, you know, we might hem and haw about the pay gap, and this and that and… but, you know, it doesn't have to be that way.
Charlotte: No. No.
Melinda: Yeah. So, there's other types of power with creativity and art. We kind of talked about this in our previous Creative Spark episode, but the power of art to foster change, also to help us heal from trauma. The power of collaboration. And so, like, we use the word power, we talk about power in the context of creativity. And art can look a lot of different ways and mean a lot of different things. Like, when I was speaking at this conference recently, you know, I was talking about power. We’ve got to claim our power and agency.
And one woman, you know, very legitimately, was like, “Well, what about those of us that are operating in very conservative industries where we don't feel safe? That like, there would be negative repercussions of our speaking up?” And I was like, “This is a great question. And we each do what we can and that we feel we are able to within our particular contexts.” Right? It's going to look different for each of us.
Charlotte: It is going to look different for each of us. And (laughter), I do know someone who works making signs for a conservative viewpoint and donates all extra income to more progressive causes. (Laughter) Like, you know, like -
Melinda: - the balancing. (Laughter)
Charlotte: Yeah. You know, create that, at the end of the day, like, an equal balancing sheet. A balance sheet. I also think that the more we practice power with, and within, again, it's another kind of muscle that we can develop.
Melinda: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So, do you want to share? We have a quote from Audre Lorde, who is a badass woman.
Charlotte: (Laughter) Super badass.
Melinda: Do you want to share it since you brought it to the table?
Charlotte: I’ll just also say I was sitting at work through the day, and a person walked by who was definitely having a hard day, and we talked for a minute, and I read her this quote and she was like, “I knew I sat down next to you for a reason!”
Melinda: (Laughter) I love it.
Charlotte: And here it is: “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive. Eaten alive.” - Audre Lorde.
Melinda: Yes. Yeah. So who controls the narrative? Are we just going to let ourselves be defined by what other people think or other people say? Or are we going to claim our own narratives?
Charlotte: I also think that it can be extremely small ways that we claim - and very powerful too - like, if you're in a situation, where you can't say, “I claim myself…” (laughter), you know, like, in my own mind, how am I thinking about myself? Am I thinking about myself as the negative things that are being said to me? Or I'm just paying attention to my own mind's narrative? And that's maybe a first step to moving away from the power that's over us, to recognizing the power that's within us.
Melinda: Definitely. Definitely. So, I think that's a great segue to our Pro Tip which is, what does creative empowerment mean to you and for you in your context, in your life? And what's one thing you could do this week for your own creative empowerment?
Charlotte: And I think we've given examples along these lines before, but maybe it's the next time that you have the opportunity to introduce yourself, is that you add writer or dancer or singer, along with the other things that you are. Because we are multidimensional human beings. That you assert some of that power in your creative imagination. And see how it feels.
Melinda: Yeah. Or enthusiast. Right? (Laughter) Or a certain… fill in the blank. Like, whatever works for you. Like, maybe you're a music enthusiast or an art enthusiast. Or whatever it might be.
Charlotte: And I think making sure that we give value to the role that we play. Like, going to see music. Like, that would be pretty bad for musicians if nobody was there to hear.
Melinda: Absolutely. We need our audiences. (Laughter)
Charlotte: But like, you're part of a collaborative. This isn't a solo event, right? That even - yeah.
Melinda: Yeah. Okay.
Charlotte: Thank you for joining us today. Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under @syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review.
Melinda: And we're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, with Charlotte joining us from the Hudson Valley. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.
We talk with visionaries and changemakers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business. We aim to illuminate the creative process from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life.
Charlotte: I'm Charlotte Gullick, and I'm a writer, educator, and writing coach. Melinda and I are the co-authors of a book on the creative process, also called Syncreate. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you're not sure how to get it off the ground, visit us at syncreate.org.
Our book, now available in both print and audiobook format, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help bring your work to the world.
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Syncreate podcast and our Creative Sparks, where we just talk about a really important idea and these little nuggets that we hope that you enjoy.
Today, we're going to talk about creativity, power and agency and, noting that we may feel powerless right now and helpless against harmful geopolitical forces, but we have more power than we realize. And so, as we jump into this, I just want to say, I think that our lack of standing under our... sorry, our lack of understanding about power as individuals and as a culture is the core issue.
Melinda: Okay. Alright. (Laughter)
Charlotte: So, like, you know, the training that I've had on power, it's just blown me away that why don't we talk about it more? And I know that we both have different… I think powerful analogies… for me, I think of power like the wind. You can't see it per se, but it touches everything. And then it's hard to catch. So, I'm really excited about what we're going to talk about.
Melinda: Yes. So on this conversation about power, I know we've both done different trainings over the years and kind of looked into this in different ways. So, I recently gave a presentation at a conference where I was, you know, talking to a group of academics about like, what is the power that we have as researchers and academics, particularly when we're sort of under siege at the moment? As far as grants being taken away and that kind of thing. So, there's different types of power and power dynamics.
There's kind of the traditional power over, that might first come to mind when we think about power, which is kind of power by domination. One person having power over another or over a group, or an entire society. There's other kinds of power, too. There's power with…
Charlotte: With! What?!
Melinda: (Laughter) What?
Charlotte: I think that we’re so used to hierarchy that… there are other kinds of power?
Melinda: There are other kinds of power. Yeah.
Charlotte: Please tell more.
Melinda: So, power with, is collaboration. What can we do together? How can we join our efforts together in an empowering way to maybe do more than any one of us could do on our own? That's the power of the group, right? Then there's power to. Which is like, personal empowerment. Like, just feeling like, “Oh, we do have some kind of agency, you know. We can make a difference individually and together.” And then there's power within, which is like, personal agency and efficacy.
And so, those are kind of the ones - those last three - kind of the ones that I'm interested in talking more about today. And I think the sort of takeaway here, is that we each have more power than we realize. We may feel disempowered in various ways, particularly if we are a member of a marginalized group in society. Then we have to remember, look at those first people who stood up for the civil rights movement, right? Or for women's rights. Or LGBTQ. Whatever it might be.
Like, somebody starts and then other people go, “Oh, wow. Like, they stood up and did something. Maybe we can do it too. Maybe we can change the laws around this. Maybe we can change people's minds around this.” And, you know, it's like, that one person has to start the ball rolling, and then other people feel more empowered to also do something, say something, come together.
Charlotte: And I believe that the people who are in the power positions of power over, part of the reason that they are successful in maintaining that is that the small people, let's say, there's a consistent narrative that, “We don't have power. And if I internalize that, then I don't have a choice, I don't have agency, and then I'm less likely to stand up or to reach out to ask someone else to be brave together.” So, I think that's really important. Is teasing out the narratives around, do we have any independent individual power, inside our own minds?
And you know, of course, this is an oversimplification, and I think it's a good opportunity for people to learn how to do a power analysis, which, again, is what do we don't like. What is my power in this situation?
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: And maybe I have more power than other people in the situation. So I'm going to be the one that speaks up.
Melinda: Yes.
Charlotte: Like, for example, when my daughter was in elementary school and there was an issue with the teacher, there were other parents who were having… that were pretty frustrated with the teacher, but they weren't in a position to speak up. And that's where I’m like, “Oh, I’m…“ -
Melinda: “It’s me. I’m on deck.”
Charlotte: - “I can do that.”
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: I have the things in place, that the stakes are lower for me to speak up. I can listen to other people. And so I think, you know, teasing out those little differences. What? What is it? “Oh, I can't do anything in the situation. Oh, maybe I have some more latitude in my life… positionality, that I can be the one to stand up.”
Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I can.
Melinda: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And just kind of back to what you were talking about before, you know, this myth that we don't have any power, or this narrative that we don't have any power… I was just, over the weekend, I watched Becoming, the documentary about Michelle Obama and her book and book tour, and all that about her life, really. And you know, at one point she was saying that, you know, a lot of people don't have a seat at the table. And that she was in a position as a black woman and as the first lady to have a seat at pretty much every table that one could have a seat at, more or less.
And once she got there, she looked around the table and realized, these people aren't any smarter or any more talented. A lot of these people don't even know why they're sitting at this table in the first place. But it's just a result of privilege, right? And like, you know, a lot of us feel like, “Well, who are we to claim our power in some way?” But again, you know, those who are in charge and in control, how did they get that way? By asserting their power or by simply stepping into the power that their lineage or their legacy handed to them, you know. And just having confidence to claim it. A lot of times when they don't necessarily deserve it.
Charlotte: Right. Or the have the qualifications. They have the confidence, but not the qualifications.
Melinda: Right. Right.
Charlotte: That makes me think about something I read - and we may have talked about it before - but in the Obama administration, in the Oval Office, they would have meetings. And the women made an agreement that if one woman suggested something and an idea, that another woman would repeat it.
Melinda: Yeah.
Charlotte: Because, you know, the studies show that if a woman endorses an idea, that it either gets dismissed or somebody else later down the line claims it. So, it was a specific strategy of power within power to empower women.
Melinda: Great.
Charlotte: You know, like, all of those to overcome, kind of like, how steeped we are in hierarchies.
Melinda: Yeah. And how the institutions that, you know, we find ourselves in, how they reaffirm that, right? So, for example, Iceland just passed a law that makes it illegal to pay women less than men. Illegal.
Charlotte: And they've been ahead on this issue.
Melinda: Oh, yeah. They’re very progressive. They've been… they’re champions of women's rights. But just, you know, we might hem and haw about the pay gap, and this and that and… but, you know, it doesn't have to be that way.
Charlotte: No. No.
Melinda: Yeah. So, there's other types of power with creativity and art. We kind of talked about this in our previous Creative Spark episode, but the power of art to foster change, also to help us heal from trauma. The power of collaboration. And so, like, we use the word power, we talk about power in the context of creativity. And art can look a lot of different ways and mean a lot of different things. Like, when I was speaking at this conference recently, you know, I was talking about power. We’ve got to claim our power and agency.
And one woman, you know, very legitimately, was like, “Well, what about those of us that are operating in very conservative industries where we don't feel safe? That like, there would be negative repercussions of our speaking up?” And I was like, “This is a great question. And we each do what we can and that we feel we are able to within our particular contexts.” Right? It's going to look different for each of us.
Charlotte: It is going to look different for each of us. And (laughter), I do know someone who works making signs for a conservative viewpoint and donates all extra income to more progressive causes. (Laughter) Like, you know, like -
Melinda: - the balancing. (Laughter)
Charlotte: Yeah. You know, create that, at the end of the day, like, an equal balancing sheet. A balance sheet. I also think that the more we practice power with, and within, again, it's another kind of muscle that we can develop.
Melinda: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So, do you want to share? We have a quote from Audre Lorde, who is a badass woman.
Charlotte: (Laughter) Super badass.
Melinda: Do you want to share it since you brought it to the table?
Charlotte: I’ll just also say I was sitting at work through the day, and a person walked by who was definitely having a hard day, and we talked for a minute, and I read her this quote and she was like, “I knew I sat down next to you for a reason!”
Melinda: (Laughter) I love it.
Charlotte: And here it is: “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive. Eaten alive.” - Audre Lorde.
Melinda: Yes. Yeah. So who controls the narrative? Are we just going to let ourselves be defined by what other people think or other people say? Or are we going to claim our own narratives?
Charlotte: I also think that it can be extremely small ways that we claim - and very powerful too - like, if you're in a situation, where you can't say, “I claim myself…” (laughter), you know, like, in my own mind, how am I thinking about myself? Am I thinking about myself as the negative things that are being said to me? Or I'm just paying attention to my own mind's narrative? And that's maybe a first step to moving away from the power that's over us, to recognizing the power that's within us.
Melinda: Definitely. Definitely. So, I think that's a great segue to our Pro Tip which is, what does creative empowerment mean to you and for you in your context, in your life? And what's one thing you could do this week for your own creative empowerment?
Charlotte: And I think we've given examples along these lines before, but maybe it's the next time that you have the opportunity to introduce yourself, is that you add writer or dancer or singer, along with the other things that you are. Because we are multidimensional human beings. That you assert some of that power in your creative imagination. And see how it feels.
Melinda: Yeah. Or enthusiast. Right? (Laughter) Or a certain… fill in the blank. Like, whatever works for you. Like, maybe you're a music enthusiast or an art enthusiast. Or whatever it might be.
Charlotte: And I think making sure that we give value to the role that we play. Like, going to see music. Like, that would be pretty bad for musicians if nobody was there to hear.
Melinda: Absolutely. We need our audiences. (Laughter)
Charlotte: But like, you're part of a collaborative. This isn't a solo event, right? That even - yeah.
Melinda: Yeah. Okay.
Charlotte: Thank you for joining us today. Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under @syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review.
Melinda: And we're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, with Charlotte joining us from the Hudson Valley. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.
