THE SYNCREATE PODCAST: EMPOWERING CREATIVITY
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
EPISODE 10: IMAGINATION AND CREATIVITY WITH PSYCHOLOGIST
& CREATIVITY COACH DR. DIANA RIVERA
LISTEN TO THE AUDIO EPISODE HERE:
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO VERSION HERE:
What comes to mind when you hear the word “imagination”? Does it evoke a particular image, scene, or context in your mind’s eye? We often associate imagination with the visual sense, as a close relative and component of creativity. But imagination can be associated with any of the five senses or perceptual fields, and it is also closely linked with intuition, spirituality, and synchronicity. And what about the dark side of imagination? We discuss all of this and more in Episode 10 of The Syncreate Podcast with Dr. Diana Rivera.
Dr. Rivera is a licensed clinical psychologist and creativity coach in Los Angeles. She’s the owner of Empowerment Psychology, and she's worked for many years as a facilitator in performing arts education, as well as offering professional development coaching to artists, youth, educators, and corporate America. She holds two Bachelor’s degrees from the University of California at Santa Cruz in American Studies and Theatre Arts. She has a MA in Psychology with a specialization in Creativity Studies and a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from Saybrook University. She is also a certified personal/professional development coach as designated by the International Coaching Federation.
At the end of the episode, I offer a Creativity Pro Tip encouraging you to consider the transpersonal or spiritual element of your own creativity and imaginal work. In other words, what gives you a sense of meaning and purpose in your life? Is there a spiritual dimension to your creative or professional work?
Dr. Rivera is a licensed clinical psychologist and creativity coach in Los Angeles. She’s the owner of Empowerment Psychology, and she's worked for many years as a facilitator in performing arts education, as well as offering professional development coaching to artists, youth, educators, and corporate America. She holds two Bachelor’s degrees from the University of California at Santa Cruz in American Studies and Theatre Arts. She has a MA in Psychology with a specialization in Creativity Studies and a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from Saybrook University. She is also a certified personal/professional development coach as designated by the International Coaching Federation.
At the end of the episode, I offer a Creativity Pro Tip encouraging you to consider the transpersonal or spiritual element of your own creativity and imaginal work. In other words, what gives you a sense of meaning and purpose in your life? Is there a spiritual dimension to your creative or professional work?
episode video clips
EPISODE-SPECIFIC HYPERLINKS
Dr. Rivera’s Psychotherapy Website
Dr. Rivera’s Creativity Coaching Website
Saybrook University Creativity, Innovation & Leadership Ph.D. Program
Article by Dr. Rothouse Navigating the Creative Wilderness in the Journal of Creativity
Buddhist Teacher Pema Chödrön
Dr. Rivera’s Creativity Coaching Website
Saybrook University Creativity, Innovation & Leadership Ph.D. Program
Article by Dr. Rothouse Navigating the Creative Wilderness in the Journal of Creativity
Buddhist Teacher Pema Chödrön
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. We view creativity broadly, and one of our primary goals is to demystify the creative process while expanding the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
My guest today is Dr. Diana Rivera. She's a licensed clinical psychologist and creativity coach in Los Angeles, and the owner of Empowerment Psychology. She's also a dear friend and colleague. She's worked for many years as a facilitator in performing arts education, as well as offering professional development coaching to artists, youth, educators, and corporate America.
Diana and I were in the same Ph.D. cohort at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity, though she was in the clinical psych program and I was in the humanistic psychology side. We quickly connected and became great friends, collaborators, and accountability partners, helping each other get through the obstacle course of getting a PhD.
Our conversation today focuses on the role of imagination in creativity and creative identity, the connection between imagination and intuition, and even the dark side of imagination. So, let's just jump right in.
So I want to kind of begin the conversation around the topic of imagination, which was the topic for your dissertation research, and you were working with creative professionals in the Los Angeles area. And I'm curious: How you think about and define imagination. So for me, when I think about imagination, I feel like it's the kind of first step in the creative process. So when we engage in creativity, whatever medium it is, first we have to be able to imagine and envision the thing. that we want to do or that we want to bring to life, and then we can begin to manifest it. So I'm curious, how do you think about imagination and what came up from your research around imagination and creative identity?
Diana: Well, first off, I want to say thank you so much for having me on this show. I love what you're doing and I'm so very honored to be here. I love being connected with imagination on this topic, but just in general, I love being in the same topic as imagination. It's a meaningful place for me. It's something I've been into, obsessed over, thinking a lot about since my childhood, and having a very strong imagination myself or imaginative world or worlds that I would go to.
I will say that your definition of imagination is actually not far off from the way I would describe it to people and artists who I may be working with or any sort of lay person's sense of, you know, what is imagination. It's almost like the first door you enter into in the creative process before it manifests, as you say, into a more full-fledged process or product.
In my research, because I wanted to take this interest of mine to the next level, I was able to interview multiple artists, and this again for people who are listening, when I say for my research, I'm referring to my doctoral research. And so in this, I really wanted to study the imaginative lives of creative professionals, and to see how they were discussing things, and exploring it, and what they felt and thought, and how they understood it effectively. And many other things; it was quite formalized. But I would say that coming from the results of my study and integrating into my life now, I see imagination as an experience of human consciousness.
In experience, because imagination is an experience, the lived expression of one's daily life. There are various facets that I was able to extrapolate from it. I understand that imagination happens internally, inside of a person, so we refer to that as an intrapersonal process, an intrapersonal experience.
Imagination happens between people. It happens in collaboration through ideation, free association, so it is an interpersonal experience. I also learned from the subjects that I studied that imagination can also be seen as a transpersonal experience. It happens with oneself, and it can be within community, of course, but it also is part of the bigger ether, I would say, of one's spiritual, or be it religious, or be it just transpersonal experience.
So for many who are familiar with the transpersonal, you'll know what I mean when I say that, but it's kind of looking at a bigger sense of one's cosmology in the universal energies and fields that we live in. So just to sort of recap, I guess the way I would technically describe it is imagination is an experience of human consciousness that embodies those three facets to it, but you know, that's a mouthful.
So I kind of like where you're going, Melinda. It's the place it's the place we begin. It's the sandbox you first land. It's like, there is no creativity without something having lived inside of you first. It's just what you can imagine, what you fantasize over.
Melinda: I love that, that there's those three dimensions that you found because, you know, sometimes we think about imagination as being purely an internal process. As you first mentioned, they're sort of intrapersonal, and yet, you know, imagination always happens in a context, right? And in creativity, we often talk about divergent thinking, associative thinking. We're making connections between things. And the more we're engaging with other people and with the world, the more, I think, potential there is for imagination.
Diana: I think for listeners who are thinking about their own imagination right now and what it means to them, in some ways one might land in terms of thinking the visual aspects of imagination. Like, oh right, you visualize. That's one part of it. There's also free association. There's ideating. There's beginning to not just see, by the way, that's only one perceptual skill. There's also feeling, smelling, sensing through other kinds of forces, the imaginative feelings or the imaginative experience.
Melinda: Yeah, and I think it's so important that you say that. I remember a conversation I had with a neighbor of mine some years back and we were just kind of sitting out in the yard with a few people and chatting about creativity. I think I was still in the program at the time and he was asking me about my studies and you know, in the context of the conversation, it came up where he was like, well, I don't actually see images in my mind.
Diana: Exactly.
Melinda: You know, I hear, I experience in other ways, but we so often associate imagination with the visual. And so I think it's so important, as you pointed out, it's not just visual. Some people don't even have that capacity. And yet they still are creative and they still utilize imagination.
Diana: Well, this is something that I learned from, a number of the participants, especially the musicians and/or composers that I had talked to, is many of them heard the music before they actually were able to achieve anything really about it. They heard something almost in the ether. Some performing artists could like feel something in their body, like even those who are creating characters, like, a moment or an image of something that was meaningful, or a piece of costume, right? Like a costume item that was like, oh my gosh, this is the character. There's something about this is the character that I intend to build.
Melinda: So there's so many avenues of exploration, you know, we could go to, but one of the things we were talking about in our conversations kind of leading up to this, you know, we think of imagination and often creativity itself is like, oh, it's, it's a good thing. It's a positive thing. But sometimes we also talk about the dark sides of creativity or of imagination.
And I'm just wondering with the people that you work with, you know, you work with a lot of people in the entertainment industry, and you mentioned there is this possibility that of the dark side, where maybe we fall into excess or even self-destruction. So how does that come up in reference to imagination?
Diana: This is actually a facet that I've just been interested in, I think, in my creativity work, is the darker aspects of creativity. And, guess what? The darker aspects of the imagination. So the way that I see it often being played out, let's take a creative artist, for example. If some, you know, an individual is sort of concerned that maybe they are tapping into the darker sides of creativity.
Well, it's hard to generally know if that's happening, but I think that often the image that someone has in their mind about what they're doing or what they're striving for, or what they're trying to create, may be completely and totally unfeasible. It may be completely and totally outside of their realm. That same thing that they're shooting for, that they see and feel deep within them, is so unattainable, but it is also creating so much conflict in their life. It's destroying interpersonal relationships, maybe personally or professionally, and it's creating maybe other types of excess. Now they're returning back to alcohol; now they've had this ongoing thing with marijuana because, we know, when they're high on marijuana, they get all the images, but they're unable to do the follow through.
So it's a very interesting, I think, multilayered dynamic there, but there is a darkness there, and the darkness is probably associated, exactly what you say, to self-destruction, excess, overly fantasizing without doing the directed work towards their goal and seeing the feasibility of it all at the end of the day.
Melinda: So, what would be the antidote to that? So if you see like clients or you know, people that you work with, kind of falling into some of those pitfalls, how could they work with that? How could they find their way out?
Diana: This is an extremely complex area that I think requires one to work with a coach such as yourself, Melinda, because you do extraordinary work with creative professionals and you're highly attuned, or say a psychologist with a background in creativity, or certainly just a very open and understanding psychologist who understands, yeah, you can get, you know, you can get dark inside of yourself.
It's extremely multidimensional. And I think it's important for someone to come to the person that they're asking for support with, to be like, I don't know if I'm engaging in a darkness about myself in terms of my creativity that, you know, is not going to be worth my time. It's actually not helping me grow. I'm not getting where I want to. And I need someone to help me understand this or help guide. You know, I think that if you are feeling stuck, for any artist who may be feeling stuck, I would also wonder if there is a darker aspect to your imaginative or creative world that may be holding you back. And by the way, some of those problems might also be spiritual in nature. You know, falling off of spiritual practice and not seeing it in connection with the imaginative creative process that you're in.
Melinda: Yeah, so you mentioned kind of the Jungian side, which is something I've delved into as well and I find very fascinating as it relates to creativity. And so I've been presenting and writing about what happens when we get stuck creatively. And it helps to understand that sometimes getting stuck is actually just a natural part of the creative process. And so if we can understand creativity as this journey, along the lines of the hero's journey, where it's like we kind of have to go down into that abyss in order to find our way back out and come full circle, then if we can kind of anticipate that that's something that happens along the way, then we don't have to be so afraid of it, and we might be able to actually open up to it, right?
So because Jung said, you know, there's no way out but through. So sometimes when we're in more of a dark or shadowy place, there's actually something really vital to explore there. And to me, it also relates to the incubation phase of creativity, which is where we might be really focused on a project. Sometimes we do have to step away and let our mind kind of percolate in the background and keep working on it, and then we can come back fresh, or we'll get an insight. You know, when we're doing something completely different, like we're in the shower, we're taking a walk, we're in our dreams and something will come. So just being open to the journey; it's not a linear one, right?
Diana: No, it's not. And you know, now we're kind of going into the shadow Jungian, which is representative of some type of darkness within the imaginative or creative world. As an example, for those who are thinking about their own lives or, you know, people they know, is that often we can give our creative power away to others for validation, so that we can be connected to the Hollywood industry, so that we can get our agents to like us more, to work for us harder, for this. We give our power away as opposed to taking all of those sort of chips back and realizing, you know, maybe this thing that you're writing, or maybe this thing that you're creating, yeah, maybe it'll sell millions. Maybe at the end of the day it will, but maybe it's also just okay if it was just for you. And at the end of the day, it was all for you. But it also turned you into a better person, made you think of a new business idea. You became a better partner to somebody.
Melinda: Yes. So, you know, this seems to be a theme that's coming up a lot in this show, in this podcast, is there's creativity kind of for a specific end, a specific product. But there's also a value in creativity just unto itself, as a process, as a way of expressing ourselves, as a way of working through things that can be very therapeutic and healing in its own right, as you're saying.
Diana: That's exactly right.
Melinda: So you touched on the kind of spiritual aspects of the creative process, and I want to go into that because I think it's a topic that we both really are interested in. And so I'm curious how you see the connection between imagination and intuition. You've talked about synchronicity and spirituality. So I know this is a big question, but how do these things fit together in your world and in your own experience?
Diana: You know, I, for my own personal life, and make my creative life, and then the work I've done with clients that there would be no imagination without intuition, without synchronicity. There would be no synchronicity without imagination, without intuition. There'd be no intuition without…It's like this, wondrous, circular, spiraled world of experiences. In fact, sometimes the intuitive hit leads someone to have more imaginative experiences related to the work they want to create, or vice versa. There could be a like a synchronicity of events that happened in the world that makes one, almost as if the information is now walking to them.
They are confronted with something that is now meaningful for them, personally, or creatively, or however the chips may fall in life. Not that I'm providing any possible definitions for anybody about this, I don't think that's what it's about. I would like to say to people that will listen to this is just, validate that the three are working hand in hand.
Melinda: Absolutely. And that's the thing. It's like, I feel everything's interconnected, right? And so when we talk about (just for a little bit of definition), just what I'm thinking about in my mind, when we talk about intuition, it's like tuning in to the deep Self, right? Sometimes it involves getting out of the head and getting more into the heart, or getting more into the body, and just paying attention to what's coming up there.
And then synchronicity kind of has to do with like paying attention to what's happening in the world. And when we do that, when we're working on a particular project or we're just thinking about a certain thing, we start to see that everywhere. It's like the classic, you know, we're thinking about buying a car and all of a sudden we see that car everywhere, right? It's like we're thinking about a certain idea and then all of a sudden, you know, everything that we encounter is kind of affirming that in a way.
Diana: Yeah, it's now everywhere. It's like magical dust, like fairy dust. It's everywhere. I love that you bring up the definition part. I think it's, as psychologists, there is a real need to define any terms that we use. And I've realized that often with clients without defining anything people just somehow know what it is. Like they know what intuition is. Sometimes people don't intuitively know what imagination is. So this is something to consider.
Melinda: Right. So I'm curious, we're both coaches around creativity, we both work with people in a psychological context. And I'm curious, what advice would you give to people who are struggling with either their creative process or just their sense of creative purpose? Do you have any, sort of, go-to strategies there?
Diana: Well, what's first coming up for me is that there are so many human problems that prevent people from fully committing to their passion and purpose, that is expressed initially in their imagination and then gets manifest into creativity. The amount of problems, the amount of blocks that people have, what I have found are like, limitless.
So too is imagination. It is also limitless. So I think in many ways, I want to be clear that people in their own self-reflective work, it's okay to ask oneself, what is exactly the block that is upon them? What is exactly the problem in which they are dealing with? And it is exactly that problem or issue, however they decide to see it, to actually, I want to say, love it.
I want to say not like fall in love with it, but offer it love, offer it attention, give it support, give that part of you that is holding the problem or holding the block that's deep within you. Give it some love and bring it to the light. Get support. Get help. That could be with a coach or it could be with working with a psychotherapist or it could be entering into a really supportive artist group, finding an ally, friend, to help you in that process.
So this to me is really quite critical. Now, when it comes to certain problems, I probably have more to say about it. Here's one problem I will share because I've often heard this, is lack of confidence. Some people might not even utter those words. They might sound insecure.
Melinda: Yes.
Diana: You lack confidence, right? Confidence is a muscle. You have to build confidence like a muscle, and how do you build muscle? You have to start working it, one day at a time and it doesn't have to be much, but you have to give love to that part of you expressing your creativity every single day, some time and attention, you now helping yourself.
Melinda: There's so much around this. This has been coming up again in other conversations I've been having, you know, for this show, and people can tend to be so self-critical, and so self-judgmental, and to where sometimes I'll recommend to a client like, well, try just doing a gratitude practice or, you know, just thinking about like what went well, and it's hard to even do that.
So I think you're right. Pema Chödrön, the Buddhist teacher, talks about making friends with ourselves, and there's this whole movement around self-compassion. So much of it is, you know, how do we be kind to ourselves in order to develop that true confidence, which is not the same thing as arrogance by any means, right, but just that sense of our own ability and efficacy, in the world or in our creative work.
Diana: I think at the core of confidence is self-love and a respect for one's imaginative and creative sensibility. I'm speaking specifically about artists when I say that.
Melinda: Well, this is wonderful. I'm curious; I have an eye on the time, but I feel like there's maybe something more to say here. And I'm curious, like what's at the top of your mind at the moment around creativity, creative process, whether, you know, just in your own work, or things that come up with your clients?
Diana: You know, it's interesting spending so much time investigating imagination and creativity. I have really had to almost let go of the topic in some ways because it had infiltrated every single aspect of myself. And so I allow myself to just sort of begin to have interest in the other places, you know. These days I've been really interested in nutrition and fitness and how that sort of affects people's ability to function and age. And anyways, that's been kind of a new thing outside of creativity. But, I think with that said, I'm constantly a student of the greater ether that we live in.
So when I refer to the ether, you can almost think of it as like a worldwide ethernet of different, you know, energetic fields and energetic dimensions that I believe that we live in, and I believe that imagination and creativity live in those places. And it's a matter of getting connected to those internal and external coordinates to feel a sense of deep connection with the self. Artists are channels. Humans are just, we are just channels of information. And I think at times we've barely come to understand the extent of our own ability to channel within the fields that we live in.
Melinda: Again, going on, like, in the world around us and in the wider cosmos, right?
Diana: Yeah.
Melinda: And by tuning in with practices like meditation, it allows us to connect with our ourselves, our own motivations, our own musings and creative ideas. But it also allows us to connect with the wider world, the wider cosmos, if you will. And then, you know, there's a receptivity that happens that can inform our ideas and our work.
Diana: One thousand percent, I believe. Not that every artist needs to have a spiritual life or any religious life per se, but it's about connectivity in general and being plugged into an energetic source, whatever that might be, that intrigues me to no end.
Melinda: Exactly. And I'm always kind of encouraging people, you know, whatever that looks like for you, right? There's no one way to go about it. There's no one way to connect, but really understanding your own creative process and what works for you and what lights you up, and what seems to be a productive avenue and then being able to have some awareness around that so that you can continue to cultivate it.
Diana: That's right, Melinda. And I wanted to add one thing. When it comes to the body, any creative professional cannot underestimate the power of one's own body to bring about one's creativity. If one is not healthy, if they are living with certain symptomology from certain illnesses or whatnot, it will impact your creativity. Not necessarily for the worse, but I'm saying it will impact your creativity. And so with that said, I'm hoping that all artists that are listening to this can also consider their body in connection with the things that they're trying to manifest right now.
Melinda: Yeah. There's so much wisdom in the body.There's so much knowledge. You know, we talk about our second brain in our gut. You know, so much there to explore through different modalities, movement practices, somatic work. Yeah. I think essential to creativity.
Diana: Yes. Body is like an open library, you know, it's an eco-center of all the knowledges, it's all within us.
Melinda: Well, I really appreciate your taking the time today. So just want to thank you so much for coming on the show. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you. And if people want to find more about what you're up to and your work, how can they find you?
Diana: Yes. You can go to my website, empowermentpsychologyla.com.
Melinda: Well thank you so much, Diana.
Diana: Thank you.
Melinda: For today's Creativity Pro Tip, I encourage you to consider the transpersonal element of your own creativity and imaginal work. In other words, what gives you a sense of meaning and purpose in your life? Is there a spiritual dimension to your creative or professional work?
This doesn't necessarily equate to a specific religious tradition or path. A lot of my clients, for example, are driven by a general desire to help people or make a positive difference in the world. Connecting with a wider sense of purpose, or connection, can often fuel our creative work in positive ways, allowing us to harness our passions for the sake of the greater good.
Thanks again to Dr. Diana for the conversation. You can learn more about her work at empowermentpsychologyla.com and at creativeempowermentcoaching.com. We'll provide links to those in the show notes.
This episode was produced by Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios in Austin, with production assistance by Christian Haigis. Follow Syncreate on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
My guest today is Dr. Diana Rivera. She's a licensed clinical psychologist and creativity coach in Los Angeles, and the owner of Empowerment Psychology. She's also a dear friend and colleague. She's worked for many years as a facilitator in performing arts education, as well as offering professional development coaching to artists, youth, educators, and corporate America.
Diana and I were in the same Ph.D. cohort at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity, though she was in the clinical psych program and I was in the humanistic psychology side. We quickly connected and became great friends, collaborators, and accountability partners, helping each other get through the obstacle course of getting a PhD.
Our conversation today focuses on the role of imagination in creativity and creative identity, the connection between imagination and intuition, and even the dark side of imagination. So, let's just jump right in.
So I want to kind of begin the conversation around the topic of imagination, which was the topic for your dissertation research, and you were working with creative professionals in the Los Angeles area. And I'm curious: How you think about and define imagination. So for me, when I think about imagination, I feel like it's the kind of first step in the creative process. So when we engage in creativity, whatever medium it is, first we have to be able to imagine and envision the thing. that we want to do or that we want to bring to life, and then we can begin to manifest it. So I'm curious, how do you think about imagination and what came up from your research around imagination and creative identity?
Diana: Well, first off, I want to say thank you so much for having me on this show. I love what you're doing and I'm so very honored to be here. I love being connected with imagination on this topic, but just in general, I love being in the same topic as imagination. It's a meaningful place for me. It's something I've been into, obsessed over, thinking a lot about since my childhood, and having a very strong imagination myself or imaginative world or worlds that I would go to.
I will say that your definition of imagination is actually not far off from the way I would describe it to people and artists who I may be working with or any sort of lay person's sense of, you know, what is imagination. It's almost like the first door you enter into in the creative process before it manifests, as you say, into a more full-fledged process or product.
In my research, because I wanted to take this interest of mine to the next level, I was able to interview multiple artists, and this again for people who are listening, when I say for my research, I'm referring to my doctoral research. And so in this, I really wanted to study the imaginative lives of creative professionals, and to see how they were discussing things, and exploring it, and what they felt and thought, and how they understood it effectively. And many other things; it was quite formalized. But I would say that coming from the results of my study and integrating into my life now, I see imagination as an experience of human consciousness.
In experience, because imagination is an experience, the lived expression of one's daily life. There are various facets that I was able to extrapolate from it. I understand that imagination happens internally, inside of a person, so we refer to that as an intrapersonal process, an intrapersonal experience.
Imagination happens between people. It happens in collaboration through ideation, free association, so it is an interpersonal experience. I also learned from the subjects that I studied that imagination can also be seen as a transpersonal experience. It happens with oneself, and it can be within community, of course, but it also is part of the bigger ether, I would say, of one's spiritual, or be it religious, or be it just transpersonal experience.
So for many who are familiar with the transpersonal, you'll know what I mean when I say that, but it's kind of looking at a bigger sense of one's cosmology in the universal energies and fields that we live in. So just to sort of recap, I guess the way I would technically describe it is imagination is an experience of human consciousness that embodies those three facets to it, but you know, that's a mouthful.
So I kind of like where you're going, Melinda. It's the place it's the place we begin. It's the sandbox you first land. It's like, there is no creativity without something having lived inside of you first. It's just what you can imagine, what you fantasize over.
Melinda: I love that, that there's those three dimensions that you found because, you know, sometimes we think about imagination as being purely an internal process. As you first mentioned, they're sort of intrapersonal, and yet, you know, imagination always happens in a context, right? And in creativity, we often talk about divergent thinking, associative thinking. We're making connections between things. And the more we're engaging with other people and with the world, the more, I think, potential there is for imagination.
Diana: I think for listeners who are thinking about their own imagination right now and what it means to them, in some ways one might land in terms of thinking the visual aspects of imagination. Like, oh right, you visualize. That's one part of it. There's also free association. There's ideating. There's beginning to not just see, by the way, that's only one perceptual skill. There's also feeling, smelling, sensing through other kinds of forces, the imaginative feelings or the imaginative experience.
Melinda: Yeah, and I think it's so important that you say that. I remember a conversation I had with a neighbor of mine some years back and we were just kind of sitting out in the yard with a few people and chatting about creativity. I think I was still in the program at the time and he was asking me about my studies and you know, in the context of the conversation, it came up where he was like, well, I don't actually see images in my mind.
Diana: Exactly.
Melinda: You know, I hear, I experience in other ways, but we so often associate imagination with the visual. And so I think it's so important, as you pointed out, it's not just visual. Some people don't even have that capacity. And yet they still are creative and they still utilize imagination.
Diana: Well, this is something that I learned from, a number of the participants, especially the musicians and/or composers that I had talked to, is many of them heard the music before they actually were able to achieve anything really about it. They heard something almost in the ether. Some performing artists could like feel something in their body, like even those who are creating characters, like, a moment or an image of something that was meaningful, or a piece of costume, right? Like a costume item that was like, oh my gosh, this is the character. There's something about this is the character that I intend to build.
Melinda: So there's so many avenues of exploration, you know, we could go to, but one of the things we were talking about in our conversations kind of leading up to this, you know, we think of imagination and often creativity itself is like, oh, it's, it's a good thing. It's a positive thing. But sometimes we also talk about the dark sides of creativity or of imagination.
And I'm just wondering with the people that you work with, you know, you work with a lot of people in the entertainment industry, and you mentioned there is this possibility that of the dark side, where maybe we fall into excess or even self-destruction. So how does that come up in reference to imagination?
Diana: This is actually a facet that I've just been interested in, I think, in my creativity work, is the darker aspects of creativity. And, guess what? The darker aspects of the imagination. So the way that I see it often being played out, let's take a creative artist, for example. If some, you know, an individual is sort of concerned that maybe they are tapping into the darker sides of creativity.
Well, it's hard to generally know if that's happening, but I think that often the image that someone has in their mind about what they're doing or what they're striving for, or what they're trying to create, may be completely and totally unfeasible. It may be completely and totally outside of their realm. That same thing that they're shooting for, that they see and feel deep within them, is so unattainable, but it is also creating so much conflict in their life. It's destroying interpersonal relationships, maybe personally or professionally, and it's creating maybe other types of excess. Now they're returning back to alcohol; now they've had this ongoing thing with marijuana because, we know, when they're high on marijuana, they get all the images, but they're unable to do the follow through.
So it's a very interesting, I think, multilayered dynamic there, but there is a darkness there, and the darkness is probably associated, exactly what you say, to self-destruction, excess, overly fantasizing without doing the directed work towards their goal and seeing the feasibility of it all at the end of the day.
Melinda: So, what would be the antidote to that? So if you see like clients or you know, people that you work with, kind of falling into some of those pitfalls, how could they work with that? How could they find their way out?
Diana: This is an extremely complex area that I think requires one to work with a coach such as yourself, Melinda, because you do extraordinary work with creative professionals and you're highly attuned, or say a psychologist with a background in creativity, or certainly just a very open and understanding psychologist who understands, yeah, you can get, you know, you can get dark inside of yourself.
It's extremely multidimensional. And I think it's important for someone to come to the person that they're asking for support with, to be like, I don't know if I'm engaging in a darkness about myself in terms of my creativity that, you know, is not going to be worth my time. It's actually not helping me grow. I'm not getting where I want to. And I need someone to help me understand this or help guide. You know, I think that if you are feeling stuck, for any artist who may be feeling stuck, I would also wonder if there is a darker aspect to your imaginative or creative world that may be holding you back. And by the way, some of those problems might also be spiritual in nature. You know, falling off of spiritual practice and not seeing it in connection with the imaginative creative process that you're in.
Melinda: Yeah, so you mentioned kind of the Jungian side, which is something I've delved into as well and I find very fascinating as it relates to creativity. And so I've been presenting and writing about what happens when we get stuck creatively. And it helps to understand that sometimes getting stuck is actually just a natural part of the creative process. And so if we can understand creativity as this journey, along the lines of the hero's journey, where it's like we kind of have to go down into that abyss in order to find our way back out and come full circle, then if we can kind of anticipate that that's something that happens along the way, then we don't have to be so afraid of it, and we might be able to actually open up to it, right?
So because Jung said, you know, there's no way out but through. So sometimes when we're in more of a dark or shadowy place, there's actually something really vital to explore there. And to me, it also relates to the incubation phase of creativity, which is where we might be really focused on a project. Sometimes we do have to step away and let our mind kind of percolate in the background and keep working on it, and then we can come back fresh, or we'll get an insight. You know, when we're doing something completely different, like we're in the shower, we're taking a walk, we're in our dreams and something will come. So just being open to the journey; it's not a linear one, right?
Diana: No, it's not. And you know, now we're kind of going into the shadow Jungian, which is representative of some type of darkness within the imaginative or creative world. As an example, for those who are thinking about their own lives or, you know, people they know, is that often we can give our creative power away to others for validation, so that we can be connected to the Hollywood industry, so that we can get our agents to like us more, to work for us harder, for this. We give our power away as opposed to taking all of those sort of chips back and realizing, you know, maybe this thing that you're writing, or maybe this thing that you're creating, yeah, maybe it'll sell millions. Maybe at the end of the day it will, but maybe it's also just okay if it was just for you. And at the end of the day, it was all for you. But it also turned you into a better person, made you think of a new business idea. You became a better partner to somebody.
Melinda: Yes. So, you know, this seems to be a theme that's coming up a lot in this show, in this podcast, is there's creativity kind of for a specific end, a specific product. But there's also a value in creativity just unto itself, as a process, as a way of expressing ourselves, as a way of working through things that can be very therapeutic and healing in its own right, as you're saying.
Diana: That's exactly right.
Melinda: So you touched on the kind of spiritual aspects of the creative process, and I want to go into that because I think it's a topic that we both really are interested in. And so I'm curious how you see the connection between imagination and intuition. You've talked about synchronicity and spirituality. So I know this is a big question, but how do these things fit together in your world and in your own experience?
Diana: You know, I, for my own personal life, and make my creative life, and then the work I've done with clients that there would be no imagination without intuition, without synchronicity. There would be no synchronicity without imagination, without intuition. There'd be no intuition without…It's like this, wondrous, circular, spiraled world of experiences. In fact, sometimes the intuitive hit leads someone to have more imaginative experiences related to the work they want to create, or vice versa. There could be a like a synchronicity of events that happened in the world that makes one, almost as if the information is now walking to them.
They are confronted with something that is now meaningful for them, personally, or creatively, or however the chips may fall in life. Not that I'm providing any possible definitions for anybody about this, I don't think that's what it's about. I would like to say to people that will listen to this is just, validate that the three are working hand in hand.
Melinda: Absolutely. And that's the thing. It's like, I feel everything's interconnected, right? And so when we talk about (just for a little bit of definition), just what I'm thinking about in my mind, when we talk about intuition, it's like tuning in to the deep Self, right? Sometimes it involves getting out of the head and getting more into the heart, or getting more into the body, and just paying attention to what's coming up there.
And then synchronicity kind of has to do with like paying attention to what's happening in the world. And when we do that, when we're working on a particular project or we're just thinking about a certain thing, we start to see that everywhere. It's like the classic, you know, we're thinking about buying a car and all of a sudden we see that car everywhere, right? It's like we're thinking about a certain idea and then all of a sudden, you know, everything that we encounter is kind of affirming that in a way.
Diana: Yeah, it's now everywhere. It's like magical dust, like fairy dust. It's everywhere. I love that you bring up the definition part. I think it's, as psychologists, there is a real need to define any terms that we use. And I've realized that often with clients without defining anything people just somehow know what it is. Like they know what intuition is. Sometimes people don't intuitively know what imagination is. So this is something to consider.
Melinda: Right. So I'm curious, we're both coaches around creativity, we both work with people in a psychological context. And I'm curious, what advice would you give to people who are struggling with either their creative process or just their sense of creative purpose? Do you have any, sort of, go-to strategies there?
Diana: Well, what's first coming up for me is that there are so many human problems that prevent people from fully committing to their passion and purpose, that is expressed initially in their imagination and then gets manifest into creativity. The amount of problems, the amount of blocks that people have, what I have found are like, limitless.
So too is imagination. It is also limitless. So I think in many ways, I want to be clear that people in their own self-reflective work, it's okay to ask oneself, what is exactly the block that is upon them? What is exactly the problem in which they are dealing with? And it is exactly that problem or issue, however they decide to see it, to actually, I want to say, love it.
I want to say not like fall in love with it, but offer it love, offer it attention, give it support, give that part of you that is holding the problem or holding the block that's deep within you. Give it some love and bring it to the light. Get support. Get help. That could be with a coach or it could be with working with a psychotherapist or it could be entering into a really supportive artist group, finding an ally, friend, to help you in that process.
So this to me is really quite critical. Now, when it comes to certain problems, I probably have more to say about it. Here's one problem I will share because I've often heard this, is lack of confidence. Some people might not even utter those words. They might sound insecure.
Melinda: Yes.
Diana: You lack confidence, right? Confidence is a muscle. You have to build confidence like a muscle, and how do you build muscle? You have to start working it, one day at a time and it doesn't have to be much, but you have to give love to that part of you expressing your creativity every single day, some time and attention, you now helping yourself.
Melinda: There's so much around this. This has been coming up again in other conversations I've been having, you know, for this show, and people can tend to be so self-critical, and so self-judgmental, and to where sometimes I'll recommend to a client like, well, try just doing a gratitude practice or, you know, just thinking about like what went well, and it's hard to even do that.
So I think you're right. Pema Chödrön, the Buddhist teacher, talks about making friends with ourselves, and there's this whole movement around self-compassion. So much of it is, you know, how do we be kind to ourselves in order to develop that true confidence, which is not the same thing as arrogance by any means, right, but just that sense of our own ability and efficacy, in the world or in our creative work.
Diana: I think at the core of confidence is self-love and a respect for one's imaginative and creative sensibility. I'm speaking specifically about artists when I say that.
Melinda: Well, this is wonderful. I'm curious; I have an eye on the time, but I feel like there's maybe something more to say here. And I'm curious, like what's at the top of your mind at the moment around creativity, creative process, whether, you know, just in your own work, or things that come up with your clients?
Diana: You know, it's interesting spending so much time investigating imagination and creativity. I have really had to almost let go of the topic in some ways because it had infiltrated every single aspect of myself. And so I allow myself to just sort of begin to have interest in the other places, you know. These days I've been really interested in nutrition and fitness and how that sort of affects people's ability to function and age. And anyways, that's been kind of a new thing outside of creativity. But, I think with that said, I'm constantly a student of the greater ether that we live in.
So when I refer to the ether, you can almost think of it as like a worldwide ethernet of different, you know, energetic fields and energetic dimensions that I believe that we live in, and I believe that imagination and creativity live in those places. And it's a matter of getting connected to those internal and external coordinates to feel a sense of deep connection with the self. Artists are channels. Humans are just, we are just channels of information. And I think at times we've barely come to understand the extent of our own ability to channel within the fields that we live in.
Melinda: Again, going on, like, in the world around us and in the wider cosmos, right?
Diana: Yeah.
Melinda: And by tuning in with practices like meditation, it allows us to connect with our ourselves, our own motivations, our own musings and creative ideas. But it also allows us to connect with the wider world, the wider cosmos, if you will. And then, you know, there's a receptivity that happens that can inform our ideas and our work.
Diana: One thousand percent, I believe. Not that every artist needs to have a spiritual life or any religious life per se, but it's about connectivity in general and being plugged into an energetic source, whatever that might be, that intrigues me to no end.
Melinda: Exactly. And I'm always kind of encouraging people, you know, whatever that looks like for you, right? There's no one way to go about it. There's no one way to connect, but really understanding your own creative process and what works for you and what lights you up, and what seems to be a productive avenue and then being able to have some awareness around that so that you can continue to cultivate it.
Diana: That's right, Melinda. And I wanted to add one thing. When it comes to the body, any creative professional cannot underestimate the power of one's own body to bring about one's creativity. If one is not healthy, if they are living with certain symptomology from certain illnesses or whatnot, it will impact your creativity. Not necessarily for the worse, but I'm saying it will impact your creativity. And so with that said, I'm hoping that all artists that are listening to this can also consider their body in connection with the things that they're trying to manifest right now.
Melinda: Yeah. There's so much wisdom in the body.There's so much knowledge. You know, we talk about our second brain in our gut. You know, so much there to explore through different modalities, movement practices, somatic work. Yeah. I think essential to creativity.
Diana: Yes. Body is like an open library, you know, it's an eco-center of all the knowledges, it's all within us.
Melinda: Well, I really appreciate your taking the time today. So just want to thank you so much for coming on the show. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you. And if people want to find more about what you're up to and your work, how can they find you?
Diana: Yes. You can go to my website, empowermentpsychologyla.com.
Melinda: Well thank you so much, Diana.
Diana: Thank you.
Melinda: For today's Creativity Pro Tip, I encourage you to consider the transpersonal element of your own creativity and imaginal work. In other words, what gives you a sense of meaning and purpose in your life? Is there a spiritual dimension to your creative or professional work?
This doesn't necessarily equate to a specific religious tradition or path. A lot of my clients, for example, are driven by a general desire to help people or make a positive difference in the world. Connecting with a wider sense of purpose, or connection, can often fuel our creative work in positive ways, allowing us to harness our passions for the sake of the greater good.
Thanks again to Dr. Diana for the conversation. You can learn more about her work at empowermentpsychologyla.com and at creativeempowermentcoaching.com. We'll provide links to those in the show notes.
This episode was produced by Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios in Austin, with production assistance by Christian Haigis. Follow Syncreate on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
