THE SYNCREATE PODCAST: EMPOWERING CREATIVITY
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
EPISODE 9 - MUSIC AND PSYCHOLOGY:
THE POCKET EXPERIENCE WITH DR. JEFF MIMS
LISTEN TO THE FULL AUDIO EPISODE HERE:
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO VERSION HERE:
Dr. Jeff Mims is a psychologist, creativity expert, musician, and researcher. His work focuses on the relationships between music, health and well-being. He holds a doctorate in humanistic psychology with a specialization in creativity studies, as well as a master's in rehabilitation counseling, and a bachelor's in film and cinema studies. Currently he’s the operations lead at the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma. For his doctoral research, Jeff focused on the musical experience of “the pocket.” This term comes out of the jazz world, when a group of musicians performing together come into a collective flow state.
Dr. Mims and I were in the same PhD program at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity, but he started the program right after I finished. So we knew of each other, and we were connected on LinkedIn, but we only recently finally got to meet in person at a creativity conference in Oregon. We immediately connected. Jeff and I are both musicians, and I was really struck by his presence and positivity. Through our conversations at the conference, we both recognized an opportunity to collaborate, so I’m excited to bring you our conversation today about the pocket experience and the healing power of music.
Once you’ve heard the episode, my Creativity ProTip is to think about your own experience of flow states, either individually or with others, in your creative or professional work. When do they happen? What does a flow state look and feel like for you personally? What’s possible from that place? Flow states generally happen when we are so absorbed and engaged in a particular task that time almost disappears, when we’re in the zone. Getting there requires a balance of skill, experience, and challenge. So my question for you is: How can you facilitate such flow states for yourself and others? Pay attention to your own energetic flows and see if you can create the conditions for them to happen more intentionally, because that’s where the creative magic happens!
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced by Michael Osborne at 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Creative development and video production by Shuja Uddin and Devon Foster at Tishna Films. Artwork by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode, you might also like our conversations in Episode 3: Creative Polymathy with Musician, Photographer, and Podcaster Michael Walker, Episode 5: Creative Global Citizenship with Filmmaker and Screenwriter Shuja Uddin, and Episode 7: The Syncreate Story with Charlotte Gullick.
Dr. Mims and I were in the same PhD program at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity, but he started the program right after I finished. So we knew of each other, and we were connected on LinkedIn, but we only recently finally got to meet in person at a creativity conference in Oregon. We immediately connected. Jeff and I are both musicians, and I was really struck by his presence and positivity. Through our conversations at the conference, we both recognized an opportunity to collaborate, so I’m excited to bring you our conversation today about the pocket experience and the healing power of music.
Once you’ve heard the episode, my Creativity ProTip is to think about your own experience of flow states, either individually or with others, in your creative or professional work. When do they happen? What does a flow state look and feel like for you personally? What’s possible from that place? Flow states generally happen when we are so absorbed and engaged in a particular task that time almost disappears, when we’re in the zone. Getting there requires a balance of skill, experience, and challenge. So my question for you is: How can you facilitate such flow states for yourself and others? Pay attention to your own energetic flows and see if you can create the conditions for them to happen more intentionally, because that’s where the creative magic happens!
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced by Michael Osborne at 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Creative development and video production by Shuja Uddin and Devon Foster at Tishna Films. Artwork by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode, you might also like our conversations in Episode 3: Creative Polymathy with Musician, Photographer, and Podcaster Michael Walker, Episode 5: Creative Global Citizenship with Filmmaker and Screenwriter Shuja Uddin, and Episode 7: The Syncreate Story with Charlotte Gullick.
EPISODE VIDEO CLIPS
EPISODE-SPECIFIC HYPERLINKS
Dr. Jeff Mims on LinkedIn
The Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma on LinkedIn
Saxophonist Kenny Garrett
Saybrook University Creativity, Innovation & Leadership Ph.D. Program
The Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma on LinkedIn
Saxophonist Kenny Garrett
Saybrook University Creativity, Innovation & Leadership Ph.D. Program
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. We view creativity broadly, and one of our primary goals is to demystify the creative process while expanding the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
My guest today is Dr. Jeff Mims. He's a psychologist, creativity expert, musician, and researcher. His work focuses on the relationships between music, health, and well-being. He holds a doctorate in humanistic psychology with a specialization in creativity studies, as well as a master's in rehabilitation counseling and a bachelor's in film and cinema studies. Currently, he's the operations lead at the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma. Dr. Mims and I were in the same PhD program at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity. But he started the program right after I finished. So we knew of each other, and we were connected on LinkedIn. But we only recently finally got to meet in person at a creativity conference in Oregon.
We immediately connected. Jeff and I are both musicians, and I was really struck by his presence and positivity. Through our conversations at the conference, we both recognized an opportunity to collaborate. So I'm excited to bring you our conversation today. For his doctoral research, Jeff focused on the musical experience of “the pocket.” This term comes out of the jazz world, when a group of musicians performing together come into a collective flow state. So I began the conversation by asking him about what it feels like to be in the pocket.
Dr. Jeff: Thank you so much. Dr. Rothouse for having me and I'm so excited and I'm so glad that you asked the question about pocket because I do get questions around pocket. “What is pocket, Jeff? What is being in the pocket?” The pocket is, It's really that state of being a dynamic and really distinct moment within the musician's consciousness that produces feelings of human ecstasy, right? So it's also related to peak performance or what we know in flow psychology, but it's really its own distinct phenomenon and it's specific to music experience. When I first started out, it was actually only known as jargon at the time, right? So there weren't any academic writings or scholarly articles or journals. There was nothing, like, “being in the pocket” as an experience didn’t exist in any of the academic writings, right?
Melinda: Mm hmm.
Dr. Jeff: So it started out as jargon, and now we have the research to go along with it. But it's basically talking about that moment that happens during music performance.
Melinda: So when a group of musicians are playing together and getting in sync and resonance and, you know, as a musician, you can feel it when it's happening, the audience can feel it. What does it feel like emotionally and experientially for you as a musician to be in the pocket?
Dr. Jeff: Oh. Oh, wow. Thank you for asking that, because a lot of times I get the question and it's about the research. Right? But you specifically asked me, “So what is it like for you?” So for me, I'll start there. Being in the pocket for me is the most amazing experience, lived experience, you can have with music. So what I'm talking about is this moment that happens on stage, right? This moment of where, you know, I'm with my band, we've practiced, we've rehearsed. And then now here is the moment, right, where the rubber meets the road.
And although it's a distinct moment, it can't really be measured with linear time. So it may go on moments, it may last an hour, it may just be, uh, you know, a minute or two, right? But it's a moment where we're all locked in and we're all in sync together. And in this moment, we lose track of time, we are completely and fully absorbed in that experience and it's like the height of music performance for me.
Um, and then I'll just kind of go back to some of what the research says, in the descriptions of the data, ‘cause we did a phenomenological study, qualitative phenomenology on this, on this experience that happens with music, and some of the descriptions are like, if heaven is right here, then being in the pocket is like, as far as you can go humanly possible, as a lived experience, right? While you're alive, right? Um, and then, you know, other participants say, you know, Jeff, I was just playing and I was going up, up, and up and I was flying like a bird, right? And so it's distinct. It's a moment that sticks out, and it's just wonderful, honestly.
Melinda: I can relate. in college I sang in an all-women's acapella group. And so there's something, you know, you can be singing and you're, you know, you're all doing your parts and you're kind of going along, but then when everyone like fully comes in to that resonance, blending voices together, it is, it's like the best feeling.
So you mentioned kind of your musical lineage, which I want to get into, but maybe going even, you know, further back into your life story. I know you have a very interesting musical origin story that you told me at the conference. Can you share that with us?
Dr. Jeff: Yes. I'm happy to. So, all right. So, humor me: The band is in a moment of heightened performance. This is a moment that's happening during the concert. So, let's go there. Right. They are rocking out and the guitar player, he's really, really getting it, right, and this is a moment where the audience and the band are really feeling it and they're just driving it and driving it, right? That's, that's what's happening in the moment.
Mind you, the very same time, the guitar player's wife is on the front row going into labor, right? So she's going into labor, she's pregnant, and visibly pregnant, and the baby's kicking and the music's playing, and the guitar player, he's getting it and the way the story is told is that the baby, it just seemed like the harder the music played, the harder the baby would kick, right? And so the song comes to an end and the wife gets her husband's attention on the guitar and she's like, “The baby's coming, the baby's coming!”
And he's like, “The baby's coming now?” She's like, “Yes, the baby's coming now” And, and he's like, “Okay, okay, well, can we play one more song?” And she's like, “No, we can't play another song. The baby's coming now!” So they go off, they go to the hospital, and that was the night that I was born. So that was my very first really lived phenomenological experience with music.
And then in thinking about that, you know, going into a doctoral study of what will my topic be? What will I research, right? I remembered back to, you know, even thinking about the psychological questions around what's happening with the baby and that conversation in the womb and the environment, the musical environment outside, right?
Because remember, you know, he's listening to his dad. I'm listening to my dad, but the band is, and I'm kicking, and you know, there's something there. But not only that, the other question was really, what was happening in that moment that my dad didn't want to leave that moment? He wanted to hold onto it for as long as possible, right? So it's like, you know, he's willing to delay his namesake, his, you know, his firstborn son, for just five more minutes in this experience, in this lived experience.
Melinda: Right. One more song.
Dr. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, “Just let me stay a little…” “No, we got to go now,” so yeah, so that's my origin story. And it kind of makes sense, right? Because I know what my life became, right? I know where I've been with music and the things that I've done.
Melinda: Yeah. So you came into the world, you were already kicking to the beat. Amazing.
Dr. Jeff: That's it, absolutely, yeah.
Melinda: You know, and people always talk about, you know, if you're going to pursue graduate studies or really any form of work or inquiry, you know, you've got to follow your passions, right? Cause that's what's going to see you through. So of course it makes perfect sense to me that you would have followed that thread of music, not only as a musician, but as a researcher as well.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely, yeah. You know, because even think about it, you know, especially in our discipline, like psychology, it can be rigorous, right? The study part of it, there's addiction, there's so much behavioral therapies, and there are a lot of things out there. And for me, personally, I needed something more, right? I needed something that was more holistic in terms of the psyche and mental wellness. And so studying music in this way was really nourishing. I get excited anytime I'm able to offer that or, you know, help someone or guide them in that way as well to connect, deeply, in that state of consciousness and drive awareness around what music brings and adds to our human experience.
Melinda: Absolutely. Oh, there's so much great stuff here. Um, I want to talk more about kind of the healing potential of music, but I'm curious, you know, I think the audience would love to hear a little bit more about your own musical lineage. I know you come from a long line of musicians.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. So I play guitar, bass, a little bit of keys, not proficient, but you know, I can write songs and things like that. Um, drums, singer, and I started, so that was how I was literally, that was the night I was born. So that, that happened. But then fast forward, recorded at four and five years old. And, then I, my dad put us on the road. We were Little Jeff and the Mims Family, you know, uh, gospel quartet, all the way up till I was about 13 when, then I broke out at 13 and had my own family band, right? My own version of it.
Melinda: Nice.
Dr. Jeff: I took a break and played some sports in high school and then in college, you know, that bug bit me again. And then from college up through now, I mean, it's just so much a part of my identity. Like I can't escape music experience. I'll always do music. I'll always play somewhere, whether anyone's listening or not, right?
But then also my dad and my mom. So my dad was a guitar player. My mom, classically trained pianist from age eight. Both grandparents are musicians. My grandfather on my dad's side and mom, grandmother on my dad's side, both singers, professional musicians, singers, and actually, I interviewed my grandfather one time about his experience with music and he's telling me stories about, you know, leaving Alabama in 1948. And then, you know, traveling with his band and touring through the Deep South and going from place to place. My dad also played and wrote, produced, recorded. So yeah, all that stuff is there. It's, uh, through and through. It’s really part of our…
Melinda: It's firmly rooted.
Dr. Jeff: Yeah.
Melinda: It makes me curious, so having grown up so much in, not only in the musical world, but performing professionally, being on the road from a really young age, like, what did you learn from that experience growing up, about people or about performance or…?
Dr. Jeff: Well, I want to say earlier on, and I'll share a quick story about my dad, right? And when he was six years old, because I interviewed him when I was doing my master's degree on music and culture.
Melinda: Uh huh.
Dr. Jeff: and he told me that, The Pilgrim Wonders, which was my grandfather's group, they were practicing in the front room. He said, I'll never forget it. I was six years old and a buddy was playing a cherry red Gibson SG. He said and the sound of it struck me, he said, and I knew then that that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, a six year-old kid.
And the reason why that's really stands out is because, again, we're talking about my dad. We know what his life became after that, right? So there was a moment where he really, really knew that this is what I want to do. But even throughout my life, there are these moments of, you know, just feeling connected, like, you know, feeling happy.
Anytime we got together, we would pull out the guitars. We would sing, we would sing original material. We would sing songs that my grandfather wrote, and so there's always this bonding and community. But not only that, if, you know, it kind of spreads. So, you know, the neighbors or people know that you do music or, you know, churches or like people know, and so people are wanting a part of that experience, right? And so it's something that you just kind of always do. It's just kind of always around us and then to use it with intention to create, you know, memories, and for weddings or funerals. It's really a part of our experience and has been for as long as I can remember.
Melinda: Yeah. That's amazing. And I love this idea of, you know, music as a way to connect, you know, with family, with community, with the broader world. I mean, it's almost a cliche, but you know, they say music is the universal language, right? And we've talked about this actually in other episodes, like even instrumental music can be so evocative and can communicate so much, without words. So there's a real power there.
So a lot of what you do is to help people heal through music. and I'm curious, how do you see the relationship between music and healing? Like, how does that work and how does that play into your work at the Music and Expressive Arts Center?
Dr. Jeff: So, you mentioned it just a minute ago about, um, you know, having these feelings around music experience, right? And so, a lot of times what happens with music is, you know, let's say, and there are studies done on, like, sad songs and why it produces happy feelings, right, or that human connectivity.
And then even in psychotherapy, we know that being seen and heard is often the goal, and so music has the capacity to articulate feelings and emotions even better than what we are feeling. And we feel connected and seen and heard through these experiences. And so what I've realized is that a lot of times these moments that happen with music get missed, right?
And so like you go to a concert and then, it's produced these moments where you like maybe crying your eyes out, right? And so you're experiencing a sort of psychological catharsis that you really needed in that moment. And then you feel refreshed after you leave.
Well, what happens is those moments get missed because we don't really fully know what we have with music. We don't really understand it fully in all of its glory. It's because it's always around us, you know what I mean? And so we have these moments, but we don't, I don't want to say capitalize, but we don't emphasize that those are the moments that we should really talk through and try to process really what's going on within us psychologically.
And so that's one of the things that we try to do at the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma, is to create these moments with intention, that they'll produce some of what's going on in your consciousness, bring it to your level of awareness, and then we process it psychologically.
Melinda: So really just putting some intention into it and reflecting on it, right? That's something we talk about a lot in this podcast is like, how do we understand and reflect on our own creative process?
Dr. Jeff: Kind of like a guided meditation, right? So it's with intention. It's with the intention to unplug and go inward. And so it's a similar sort of guided experience.
Melinda: Yeah. So music, it it affects us on so many levels as musicians, the experience of being in the pocket, you know, we feel that the audience feels that, and then there's this whole realm of healing just through listening and experiencing.
So coming back to this idea of the pocket, right, which is kind of a peak group creative experience. So what about people who've never picked up a musical instrument? Like how can we understand this kind of group flow experience and apply it maybe in contexts outside of music, say in organizations or groups of people working together?
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. So I think before we do that, we have to understand fully what, like, pocket is. So for the study, I selected professional musicians, right? Which would be like the top of their game, musicians who have put in their 10,000 hours and traveled, like for five years, like this is their life, right? And the reason in doing it that way is because I understood, even bracketing my biases as a musician, I understood that there's a quality of music performance, or musician proficiency, to enter that experience more easily, right?
These are the ones who can snap their fingers like my dad even told me, about Jimi Hendrix, he was like, you know, Jimi Hendrix, when he took the stage, he was in the pocket, right? I mentioned an example before about a saxophonist named Kenny Garrett. There was a moment he had on stage where he was just playing and playing, and like, everyone was engulfed in the moment. And I interviewed two different participants, and they both, without knowing each other, mentioned this experience, right, with Kenny Garrett on stage. And they said that, Jeff, this moment, we looked at our watches, and two hours had flown by, right. Because it was like, we're talking like one, like a continuous tune, right.
And so, there are levels to pocket. And so it is specific to music, but as a lived phenomenon, of course it could be experienced outside of music. You know, think about someone who is just in their zone, right, at the top of their game. They've practiced, they've done what it takes to get to that moment. They've had their ritual to have that distinct moment of lived experience that really stands out and so, you know, even creating that among groups, there is some individual work that has to happen, right? Because it's kind of a mutual tuning in. Dr. Cotter-Lockard talks about that, making music together, right? So if it's a team or a group, we're essentially trying to make music together and it is a process of fine tuning and stirring the pot to reach that moment.
Melinda: Yeah, I think about it in my work with leaders and teams and it's like, you know, everybody has to be on the same page. There has to be a sense of trust and connection and communication for people to be able to collaborate effectively, right? So I think there's a parallel there.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely.
Melinda: So I'm noticing our time, and I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but anything else on the topic of pocket or music and healing? Anything else that you want to share with our listeners today?
Dr. Jeff: Sure, so I'll just kind of go through some of the constituents that the pocket experience produced. So, like, now we're really getting into the psychological benefit of being in the pocket. And so one constituent we have that being in the pocket is a spiritual and dynamic embodied energy with its own directedness that develops outside of the musician themselves, right, who are aware of the experience in the moment, the very moment that it happens.
There's also this connection among the audience and the musician ensemble between them, right? There's this connection and this dynamic, embodied, musical energy. There is the loss of time. So there is a time awareness disruption. So like, “I lost track of time” [or] “it’s the best time I ever had.” You know, that is also a part of pocket experience.
There's also, this was the biggest one for me, like, because I didn't anticipate that I would find something like this. And that is the balancing of contrasting feelings happening simultaneously. And so let me give you an example of what I mean. So, one participant described, she said, to be in the pocket is to like have calm but fire in your belly energy. And that equals bliss in the moment. So think about how that, you know, is different, but it, it makes sense, right? In this dynamic, moment that happens in music experience, these contrasting, very contrasting feelings are resolved which is, you know, deeply meaningful and really important for the potential of what we can see, like this conversation of psychology and music and healing, like there's something there that a rabbit hole that we can explore further, right.
Melinda: Definitely. I love that because I think we spend so much of our time, you know, just running around. We're so busy in our lives and there's so much anxiety and all this, but like, this is a different kind of experience. And there's like a, as you say, like a calmness, but then there's this incredible energy flowing at the same time.
Dr. Jeff: Yes. And only to equal bliss, like the best word to describe it was bliss. Like, you know, so I thought that that was really cool, and to have that in the data, I was super excited about that. And then the final one was, a subtle, yet, foundational for the completion of aesthetic experience. And what that means is, is like, you know, you have a basic rhythm: one, two, three, four, right [snapping to a 4-count beat] now, just imagine all the other music that you can place in between those counts, right?
And so that's subtle, but it's so foundational for the completion of this aesthetic experience and aestheticism in art deals with its meaning and it's wrapped in its beauty. So because of its beauty, that's the reason why it means so much to me for its beauty alone, right. And so for being in the pocket, it's subtle, has subtle yet foundational quality for the aesthetic completion of aesthetic experience. And so, yeah, so that's what it says according to science and it's, we're still learning about what it means for the improvisational solo, and continued creativity, and more music and more experiences, you know? So it's fun stuff.
Melinda: Yeah. So it sounds like you're really breaking some new ground here with this research and hopefully others can follow in that path, right. And expand our understanding of these kinds of, you know, peak musical experiences.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. And one thing I just kind of want to say, to that very point, is that music experience, so for people that music connects with, the people that it works for, people who connect, they connect deeply, right? It's not a little thing. It's not something that should be ignored, honestly, psychologically, because it's meaningful to a lot of us.
Melinda: Absolutely. And that's something I really believe strongly. You know, we think about creativity and sort of artistic creativity or, you know, at a certain level, which is great, you know, people doing whatever their medium is in a professional way, but then there's also, you know, playing music or making your art or expressing yourself just for the pure joy of it. And I think that sometimes gets overlooked, and it's so important.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. You know, it's so funny you say that because um, I think sometimes we forget that happiness and lived experience is science as well. Right? So, you know, people may have a preference on quantitative over qualitative research. Jeff, show me the science.
Well, lived experience is science, right? And then also too, happiness on a psychological spectrum, happiness is like the desired state for many across the human experience. And so, you know, throw some music in there. If music produces moments of happiness or moments that speak out, then we can measure what's going on with, with the body and the mind in those moments.
Melinda: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Dr. Mims, thank you so much for being with us today. And if people want to learn more about you, your music, your work, where's the best place to find you?
Dr. Jeff: So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. Dr. Jeff Mims on LinkedIn, post a ton of research there. You can also follow us, the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma, on LinkedIn as well. We do one event a month. We are committed to creating these moments and creating programming around the science and the experiences so people can really experience what this is like. But yeah, reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn. we're happy to meet anyone. We connect with people from all over the world, so we're happy to have you as well.
Melinda: Awesome. And I look forward to our future collaborations. I think we're looking forward to doing a LinkedIn live together soon as well. So stay tuned.
Dr. Jeff: Yes, absolutely.
Melinda: Well, thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us today. It's really wonderful to talk to you and hear about your work.
Dr. Jeff: Dr. Rothouse, thank you so much. It's really my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Melinda: So we've talked in this episode about being in the pocket and how it's a peak creative experience.
My creativity challenge for you now is to think about your own experience of flow states, either individually or with others, in your creative or professional work. When do they happen? What does a flow state look like and feel like for you personally? What's possible from that place? Flow states generally happen when we are so absorbed and engaged in a particular task that time almost disappears, when we're in the zone.
Getting there requires a balance of skill, experience, and challenge. So my question for you is, how can you facilitate such flow states for yourself and others? Pay attention to your own energetic flows and see if you can create the conditions for them to happen more intentionally, because that's where the creative magic happens.
Thanks again to Dr. Jeff Mims for the conversation. You can learn more about him and the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma on LinkedIn. We'll share links in the show notes. This episode was produced by Mike Osborne with production assistance by Christian Haigis.
Follow Syncreate on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
My guest today is Dr. Jeff Mims. He's a psychologist, creativity expert, musician, and researcher. His work focuses on the relationships between music, health, and well-being. He holds a doctorate in humanistic psychology with a specialization in creativity studies, as well as a master's in rehabilitation counseling and a bachelor's in film and cinema studies. Currently, he's the operations lead at the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma. Dr. Mims and I were in the same PhD program at Saybrook University, focusing on creativity. But he started the program right after I finished. So we knew of each other, and we were connected on LinkedIn. But we only recently finally got to meet in person at a creativity conference in Oregon.
We immediately connected. Jeff and I are both musicians, and I was really struck by his presence and positivity. Through our conversations at the conference, we both recognized an opportunity to collaborate. So I'm excited to bring you our conversation today. For his doctoral research, Jeff focused on the musical experience of “the pocket.” This term comes out of the jazz world, when a group of musicians performing together come into a collective flow state. So I began the conversation by asking him about what it feels like to be in the pocket.
Dr. Jeff: Thank you so much. Dr. Rothouse for having me and I'm so excited and I'm so glad that you asked the question about pocket because I do get questions around pocket. “What is pocket, Jeff? What is being in the pocket?” The pocket is, It's really that state of being a dynamic and really distinct moment within the musician's consciousness that produces feelings of human ecstasy, right? So it's also related to peak performance or what we know in flow psychology, but it's really its own distinct phenomenon and it's specific to music experience. When I first started out, it was actually only known as jargon at the time, right? So there weren't any academic writings or scholarly articles or journals. There was nothing, like, “being in the pocket” as an experience didn’t exist in any of the academic writings, right?
Melinda: Mm hmm.
Dr. Jeff: So it started out as jargon, and now we have the research to go along with it. But it's basically talking about that moment that happens during music performance.
Melinda: So when a group of musicians are playing together and getting in sync and resonance and, you know, as a musician, you can feel it when it's happening, the audience can feel it. What does it feel like emotionally and experientially for you as a musician to be in the pocket?
Dr. Jeff: Oh. Oh, wow. Thank you for asking that, because a lot of times I get the question and it's about the research. Right? But you specifically asked me, “So what is it like for you?” So for me, I'll start there. Being in the pocket for me is the most amazing experience, lived experience, you can have with music. So what I'm talking about is this moment that happens on stage, right? This moment of where, you know, I'm with my band, we've practiced, we've rehearsed. And then now here is the moment, right, where the rubber meets the road.
And although it's a distinct moment, it can't really be measured with linear time. So it may go on moments, it may last an hour, it may just be, uh, you know, a minute or two, right? But it's a moment where we're all locked in and we're all in sync together. And in this moment, we lose track of time, we are completely and fully absorbed in that experience and it's like the height of music performance for me.
Um, and then I'll just kind of go back to some of what the research says, in the descriptions of the data, ‘cause we did a phenomenological study, qualitative phenomenology on this, on this experience that happens with music, and some of the descriptions are like, if heaven is right here, then being in the pocket is like, as far as you can go humanly possible, as a lived experience, right? While you're alive, right? Um, and then, you know, other participants say, you know, Jeff, I was just playing and I was going up, up, and up and I was flying like a bird, right? And so it's distinct. It's a moment that sticks out, and it's just wonderful, honestly.
Melinda: I can relate. in college I sang in an all-women's acapella group. And so there's something, you know, you can be singing and you're, you know, you're all doing your parts and you're kind of going along, but then when everyone like fully comes in to that resonance, blending voices together, it is, it's like the best feeling.
So you mentioned kind of your musical lineage, which I want to get into, but maybe going even, you know, further back into your life story. I know you have a very interesting musical origin story that you told me at the conference. Can you share that with us?
Dr. Jeff: Yes. I'm happy to. So, all right. So, humor me: The band is in a moment of heightened performance. This is a moment that's happening during the concert. So, let's go there. Right. They are rocking out and the guitar player, he's really, really getting it, right, and this is a moment where the audience and the band are really feeling it and they're just driving it and driving it, right? That's, that's what's happening in the moment.
Mind you, the very same time, the guitar player's wife is on the front row going into labor, right? So she's going into labor, she's pregnant, and visibly pregnant, and the baby's kicking and the music's playing, and the guitar player, he's getting it and the way the story is told is that the baby, it just seemed like the harder the music played, the harder the baby would kick, right? And so the song comes to an end and the wife gets her husband's attention on the guitar and she's like, “The baby's coming, the baby's coming!”
And he's like, “The baby's coming now?” She's like, “Yes, the baby's coming now” And, and he's like, “Okay, okay, well, can we play one more song?” And she's like, “No, we can't play another song. The baby's coming now!” So they go off, they go to the hospital, and that was the night that I was born. So that was my very first really lived phenomenological experience with music.
And then in thinking about that, you know, going into a doctoral study of what will my topic be? What will I research, right? I remembered back to, you know, even thinking about the psychological questions around what's happening with the baby and that conversation in the womb and the environment, the musical environment outside, right?
Because remember, you know, he's listening to his dad. I'm listening to my dad, but the band is, and I'm kicking, and you know, there's something there. But not only that, the other question was really, what was happening in that moment that my dad didn't want to leave that moment? He wanted to hold onto it for as long as possible, right? So it's like, you know, he's willing to delay his namesake, his, you know, his firstborn son, for just five more minutes in this experience, in this lived experience.
Melinda: Right. One more song.
Dr. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, “Just let me stay a little…” “No, we got to go now,” so yeah, so that's my origin story. And it kind of makes sense, right? Because I know what my life became, right? I know where I've been with music and the things that I've done.
Melinda: Yeah. So you came into the world, you were already kicking to the beat. Amazing.
Dr. Jeff: That's it, absolutely, yeah.
Melinda: You know, and people always talk about, you know, if you're going to pursue graduate studies or really any form of work or inquiry, you know, you've got to follow your passions, right? Cause that's what's going to see you through. So of course it makes perfect sense to me that you would have followed that thread of music, not only as a musician, but as a researcher as well.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely, yeah. You know, because even think about it, you know, especially in our discipline, like psychology, it can be rigorous, right? The study part of it, there's addiction, there's so much behavioral therapies, and there are a lot of things out there. And for me, personally, I needed something more, right? I needed something that was more holistic in terms of the psyche and mental wellness. And so studying music in this way was really nourishing. I get excited anytime I'm able to offer that or, you know, help someone or guide them in that way as well to connect, deeply, in that state of consciousness and drive awareness around what music brings and adds to our human experience.
Melinda: Absolutely. Oh, there's so much great stuff here. Um, I want to talk more about kind of the healing potential of music, but I'm curious, you know, I think the audience would love to hear a little bit more about your own musical lineage. I know you come from a long line of musicians.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. So I play guitar, bass, a little bit of keys, not proficient, but you know, I can write songs and things like that. Um, drums, singer, and I started, so that was how I was literally, that was the night I was born. So that, that happened. But then fast forward, recorded at four and five years old. And, then I, my dad put us on the road. We were Little Jeff and the Mims Family, you know, uh, gospel quartet, all the way up till I was about 13 when, then I broke out at 13 and had my own family band, right? My own version of it.
Melinda: Nice.
Dr. Jeff: I took a break and played some sports in high school and then in college, you know, that bug bit me again. And then from college up through now, I mean, it's just so much a part of my identity. Like I can't escape music experience. I'll always do music. I'll always play somewhere, whether anyone's listening or not, right?
But then also my dad and my mom. So my dad was a guitar player. My mom, classically trained pianist from age eight. Both grandparents are musicians. My grandfather on my dad's side and mom, grandmother on my dad's side, both singers, professional musicians, singers, and actually, I interviewed my grandfather one time about his experience with music and he's telling me stories about, you know, leaving Alabama in 1948. And then, you know, traveling with his band and touring through the Deep South and going from place to place. My dad also played and wrote, produced, recorded. So yeah, all that stuff is there. It's, uh, through and through. It’s really part of our…
Melinda: It's firmly rooted.
Dr. Jeff: Yeah.
Melinda: It makes me curious, so having grown up so much in, not only in the musical world, but performing professionally, being on the road from a really young age, like, what did you learn from that experience growing up, about people or about performance or…?
Dr. Jeff: Well, I want to say earlier on, and I'll share a quick story about my dad, right? And when he was six years old, because I interviewed him when I was doing my master's degree on music and culture.
Melinda: Uh huh.
Dr. Jeff: and he told me that, The Pilgrim Wonders, which was my grandfather's group, they were practicing in the front room. He said, I'll never forget it. I was six years old and a buddy was playing a cherry red Gibson SG. He said and the sound of it struck me, he said, and I knew then that that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, a six year-old kid.
And the reason why that's really stands out is because, again, we're talking about my dad. We know what his life became after that, right? So there was a moment where he really, really knew that this is what I want to do. But even throughout my life, there are these moments of, you know, just feeling connected, like, you know, feeling happy.
Anytime we got together, we would pull out the guitars. We would sing, we would sing original material. We would sing songs that my grandfather wrote, and so there's always this bonding and community. But not only that, if, you know, it kind of spreads. So, you know, the neighbors or people know that you do music or, you know, churches or like people know, and so people are wanting a part of that experience, right? And so it's something that you just kind of always do. It's just kind of always around us and then to use it with intention to create, you know, memories, and for weddings or funerals. It's really a part of our experience and has been for as long as I can remember.
Melinda: Yeah. That's amazing. And I love this idea of, you know, music as a way to connect, you know, with family, with community, with the broader world. I mean, it's almost a cliche, but you know, they say music is the universal language, right? And we've talked about this actually in other episodes, like even instrumental music can be so evocative and can communicate so much, without words. So there's a real power there.
So a lot of what you do is to help people heal through music. and I'm curious, how do you see the relationship between music and healing? Like, how does that work and how does that play into your work at the Music and Expressive Arts Center?
Dr. Jeff: So, you mentioned it just a minute ago about, um, you know, having these feelings around music experience, right? And so, a lot of times what happens with music is, you know, let's say, and there are studies done on, like, sad songs and why it produces happy feelings, right, or that human connectivity.
And then even in psychotherapy, we know that being seen and heard is often the goal, and so music has the capacity to articulate feelings and emotions even better than what we are feeling. And we feel connected and seen and heard through these experiences. And so what I've realized is that a lot of times these moments that happen with music get missed, right?
And so like you go to a concert and then, it's produced these moments where you like maybe crying your eyes out, right? And so you're experiencing a sort of psychological catharsis that you really needed in that moment. And then you feel refreshed after you leave.
Well, what happens is those moments get missed because we don't really fully know what we have with music. We don't really understand it fully in all of its glory. It's because it's always around us, you know what I mean? And so we have these moments, but we don't, I don't want to say capitalize, but we don't emphasize that those are the moments that we should really talk through and try to process really what's going on within us psychologically.
And so that's one of the things that we try to do at the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma, is to create these moments with intention, that they'll produce some of what's going on in your consciousness, bring it to your level of awareness, and then we process it psychologically.
Melinda: So really just putting some intention into it and reflecting on it, right? That's something we talk about a lot in this podcast is like, how do we understand and reflect on our own creative process?
Dr. Jeff: Kind of like a guided meditation, right? So it's with intention. It's with the intention to unplug and go inward. And so it's a similar sort of guided experience.
Melinda: Yeah. So music, it it affects us on so many levels as musicians, the experience of being in the pocket, you know, we feel that the audience feels that, and then there's this whole realm of healing just through listening and experiencing.
So coming back to this idea of the pocket, right, which is kind of a peak group creative experience. So what about people who've never picked up a musical instrument? Like how can we understand this kind of group flow experience and apply it maybe in contexts outside of music, say in organizations or groups of people working together?
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. So I think before we do that, we have to understand fully what, like, pocket is. So for the study, I selected professional musicians, right? Which would be like the top of their game, musicians who have put in their 10,000 hours and traveled, like for five years, like this is their life, right? And the reason in doing it that way is because I understood, even bracketing my biases as a musician, I understood that there's a quality of music performance, or musician proficiency, to enter that experience more easily, right?
These are the ones who can snap their fingers like my dad even told me, about Jimi Hendrix, he was like, you know, Jimi Hendrix, when he took the stage, he was in the pocket, right? I mentioned an example before about a saxophonist named Kenny Garrett. There was a moment he had on stage where he was just playing and playing, and like, everyone was engulfed in the moment. And I interviewed two different participants, and they both, without knowing each other, mentioned this experience, right, with Kenny Garrett on stage. And they said that, Jeff, this moment, we looked at our watches, and two hours had flown by, right. Because it was like, we're talking like one, like a continuous tune, right.
And so, there are levels to pocket. And so it is specific to music, but as a lived phenomenon, of course it could be experienced outside of music. You know, think about someone who is just in their zone, right, at the top of their game. They've practiced, they've done what it takes to get to that moment. They've had their ritual to have that distinct moment of lived experience that really stands out and so, you know, even creating that among groups, there is some individual work that has to happen, right? Because it's kind of a mutual tuning in. Dr. Cotter-Lockard talks about that, making music together, right? So if it's a team or a group, we're essentially trying to make music together and it is a process of fine tuning and stirring the pot to reach that moment.
Melinda: Yeah, I think about it in my work with leaders and teams and it's like, you know, everybody has to be on the same page. There has to be a sense of trust and connection and communication for people to be able to collaborate effectively, right? So I think there's a parallel there.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely.
Melinda: So I'm noticing our time, and I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but anything else on the topic of pocket or music and healing? Anything else that you want to share with our listeners today?
Dr. Jeff: Sure, so I'll just kind of go through some of the constituents that the pocket experience produced. So, like, now we're really getting into the psychological benefit of being in the pocket. And so one constituent we have that being in the pocket is a spiritual and dynamic embodied energy with its own directedness that develops outside of the musician themselves, right, who are aware of the experience in the moment, the very moment that it happens.
There's also this connection among the audience and the musician ensemble between them, right? There's this connection and this dynamic, embodied, musical energy. There is the loss of time. So there is a time awareness disruption. So like, “I lost track of time” [or] “it’s the best time I ever had.” You know, that is also a part of pocket experience.
There's also, this was the biggest one for me, like, because I didn't anticipate that I would find something like this. And that is the balancing of contrasting feelings happening simultaneously. And so let me give you an example of what I mean. So, one participant described, she said, to be in the pocket is to like have calm but fire in your belly energy. And that equals bliss in the moment. So think about how that, you know, is different, but it, it makes sense, right? In this dynamic, moment that happens in music experience, these contrasting, very contrasting feelings are resolved which is, you know, deeply meaningful and really important for the potential of what we can see, like this conversation of psychology and music and healing, like there's something there that a rabbit hole that we can explore further, right.
Melinda: Definitely. I love that because I think we spend so much of our time, you know, just running around. We're so busy in our lives and there's so much anxiety and all this, but like, this is a different kind of experience. And there's like a, as you say, like a calmness, but then there's this incredible energy flowing at the same time.
Dr. Jeff: Yes. And only to equal bliss, like the best word to describe it was bliss. Like, you know, so I thought that that was really cool, and to have that in the data, I was super excited about that. And then the final one was, a subtle, yet, foundational for the completion of aesthetic experience. And what that means is, is like, you know, you have a basic rhythm: one, two, three, four, right [snapping to a 4-count beat] now, just imagine all the other music that you can place in between those counts, right?
And so that's subtle, but it's so foundational for the completion of this aesthetic experience and aestheticism in art deals with its meaning and it's wrapped in its beauty. So because of its beauty, that's the reason why it means so much to me for its beauty alone, right. And so for being in the pocket, it's subtle, has subtle yet foundational quality for the aesthetic completion of aesthetic experience. And so, yeah, so that's what it says according to science and it's, we're still learning about what it means for the improvisational solo, and continued creativity, and more music and more experiences, you know? So it's fun stuff.
Melinda: Yeah. So it sounds like you're really breaking some new ground here with this research and hopefully others can follow in that path, right. And expand our understanding of these kinds of, you know, peak musical experiences.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. And one thing I just kind of want to say, to that very point, is that music experience, so for people that music connects with, the people that it works for, people who connect, they connect deeply, right? It's not a little thing. It's not something that should be ignored, honestly, psychologically, because it's meaningful to a lot of us.
Melinda: Absolutely. And that's something I really believe strongly. You know, we think about creativity and sort of artistic creativity or, you know, at a certain level, which is great, you know, people doing whatever their medium is in a professional way, but then there's also, you know, playing music or making your art or expressing yourself just for the pure joy of it. And I think that sometimes gets overlooked, and it's so important.
Dr. Jeff: Absolutely. You know, it's so funny you say that because um, I think sometimes we forget that happiness and lived experience is science as well. Right? So, you know, people may have a preference on quantitative over qualitative research. Jeff, show me the science.
Well, lived experience is science, right? And then also too, happiness on a psychological spectrum, happiness is like the desired state for many across the human experience. And so, you know, throw some music in there. If music produces moments of happiness or moments that speak out, then we can measure what's going on with, with the body and the mind in those moments.
Melinda: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Dr. Mims, thank you so much for being with us today. And if people want to learn more about you, your music, your work, where's the best place to find you?
Dr. Jeff: So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. Dr. Jeff Mims on LinkedIn, post a ton of research there. You can also follow us, the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma, on LinkedIn as well. We do one event a month. We are committed to creating these moments and creating programming around the science and the experiences so people can really experience what this is like. But yeah, reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn. we're happy to meet anyone. We connect with people from all over the world, so we're happy to have you as well.
Melinda: Awesome. And I look forward to our future collaborations. I think we're looking forward to doing a LinkedIn live together soon as well. So stay tuned.
Dr. Jeff: Yes, absolutely.
Melinda: Well, thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us today. It's really wonderful to talk to you and hear about your work.
Dr. Jeff: Dr. Rothouse, thank you so much. It's really my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Melinda: So we've talked in this episode about being in the pocket and how it's a peak creative experience.
My creativity challenge for you now is to think about your own experience of flow states, either individually or with others, in your creative or professional work. When do they happen? What does a flow state look like and feel like for you personally? What's possible from that place? Flow states generally happen when we are so absorbed and engaged in a particular task that time almost disappears, when we're in the zone.
Getting there requires a balance of skill, experience, and challenge. So my question for you is, how can you facilitate such flow states for yourself and others? Pay attention to your own energetic flows and see if you can create the conditions for them to happen more intentionally, because that's where the creative magic happens.
Thanks again to Dr. Jeff Mims for the conversation. You can learn more about him and the Music and Expressive Arts Center of Oklahoma on LinkedIn. We'll share links in the show notes. This episode was produced by Mike Osborne with production assistance by Christian Haigis.
Follow Syncreate on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.