THE SYNCREATE PODCAST: EMPOWERING CREATIVITY
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY, PSYCHOLOGY, AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS, AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
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HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY, PSYCHOLOGY, AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS, AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, GOOGLE PODCASTS, AND YOUTUBE
EPISODE 21: THE WALK OF FAITH AND COURAGE
WITH SHAKESPEAREAN ACTOR WARREN "REN" JACKSON
LISTEN TO THE FULL AUDIO EPISODE HERE:
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO VERSION HERE:
Following the creative path professionally requires faith and courage, as exemplified by our current guest Warren “Ren” Jackson. Originally from Indianapolis (where he and Melinda went school together growing up), Ren went on to earn an MFA from the University of Arizona, and then to a professional acting career with an emphasis on Shakespeare. He continued his artistic exploration amid the thriving theater and teaching artist community in New York.
A former company member with the Brooklyn based, site-specific theater company, Brave New World Rep, he has worked extensively in New York and regionally in the Midwest. Being a former competitive athlete, much of his approach to his artistic work is grounded in his exploration of a story's physicality. Whether through stage combat, dance, gesture or stylized movement, he has a commitment and enthusiasm to creating a physical narrative that supplements and highlights the writer's text.
Our conversation focuses on Ren’s approach to acting and directing, how growing up in the Black church helped to influence his understanding of creativity, and what he terms “the walk of faith and courage” required to follow the creative path with authenticity. Ren is currently performing with the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company in a production of Amen Corner by James Baldwin, followed by a production of Julius Cesar.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to consider how creativity lives in your body, in your gestures, your voice, your eyes, and your interactions with other others, and how you use that creativity to connect and communicate.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 3: Creative Polymathy with Musician and Multi-Creative Michael Walker, Episode 5: Creative Global Citizenship with Screenwriter and Filmmaker Shuja Uddin, and Episode 8: Grief, Healing, and the Artist’s Life with Anne Myers Cleary.
The Syncreate Podcast is now on Patreon. We’d love your support in continuing to grow the podcast and our Syncreate community. For a small monthly contribution, you’ll receive exclusive content and access, including previews of upcoming episodes, monthly calls with Melinda, and more.
A former company member with the Brooklyn based, site-specific theater company, Brave New World Rep, he has worked extensively in New York and regionally in the Midwest. Being a former competitive athlete, much of his approach to his artistic work is grounded in his exploration of a story's physicality. Whether through stage combat, dance, gesture or stylized movement, he has a commitment and enthusiasm to creating a physical narrative that supplements and highlights the writer's text.
Our conversation focuses on Ren’s approach to acting and directing, how growing up in the Black church helped to influence his understanding of creativity, and what he terms “the walk of faith and courage” required to follow the creative path with authenticity. Ren is currently performing with the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company in a production of Amen Corner by James Baldwin, followed by a production of Julius Cesar.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to consider how creativity lives in your body, in your gestures, your voice, your eyes, and your interactions with other others, and how you use that creativity to connect and communicate.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 3: Creative Polymathy with Musician and Multi-Creative Michael Walker, Episode 5: Creative Global Citizenship with Screenwriter and Filmmaker Shuja Uddin, and Episode 8: Grief, Healing, and the Artist’s Life with Anne Myers Cleary.
The Syncreate Podcast is now on Patreon. We’d love your support in continuing to grow the podcast and our Syncreate community. For a small monthly contribution, you’ll receive exclusive content and access, including previews of upcoming episodes, monthly calls with Melinda, and more.
EPISODE-SPECIFIC HYPERLINKS
Ren’s Linked-In Profile
Play: The Crucible by Arthur Miller
Play: Master Harold and the Boys by Athol Fugard
Play: Titus Andronicus by William Shakespeare
The Delacorte Theater / Shakespeare in the Park
Play / Book: Elijah Broke the Gate
Book: The Courage to Create by Rollo May
Play: Amen Corner by James Baldwin
Play: The Crucible by Arthur Miller
Play: Master Harold and the Boys by Athol Fugard
Play: Titus Andronicus by William Shakespeare
The Delacorte Theater / Shakespeare in the Park
Play / Book: Elijah Broke the Gate
Book: The Courage to Create by Rollo May
Play: Amen Corner by James Baldwin
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. Our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
And just before we get going today, I do want to mention that we are now on Patreon. So if you are enjoying the podcast and you want to support us with a small monthly contribution, this podcast at this point is entirely self-funded. We don't run commercials, so any support helps and you'll get some exclusive behind the scenes access and calls with me and more. So check it out!
And I am so excited today to have my guest, Warren Jackson, on the show. Warren is a professional actor and you do a lot of Shakespeare, not exclusively Shakespeare, but a lot of Shakespeare.
Warren: Yeah, a fair amount.
Melinda: A fair amount. Well, I want to get into that, but I first want to kind of let folks know how we know each other. So we basically grew up together from a pretty early age. We went to the same school. You started there at age five, is that correct?
Warren: Preschool.
Melinda: Preschool. Park Tudor School, Indianapolis, Indiana. And I came in fifth grade and we graduated together. So we were going through our education that whole time. And we were both in the arts, theater, music. We sang in choirs together. We did theatrical productions, including a production of The Crucible that was quite memorable. So we've both gone on to pursue our creative passions. You went on to get an MFA at the University of Arizona and continued with the acting track, which is amazing.
So there's so much to talk about here, but I kind of want to just dive right in, to, okay, so you're a black man working in the realm of Shakespeare, which is traditionally a very kind of white dominated space. And that's a whole conversation unto itself. But what's that been like for you?
Warren: I think it's been it's been a journey. I think even in this day and age, where, there's been a turn, even though a lot of Shakespeare has been Eurocentric. Yes. I feel that in the past ten, 15 years, there has certainly been a more concerted effort where storytellers have come to the fore that, or people who want to tell these 400-500 year-old stories, in new and more dynamic ways.
Melinda: Yes.
Warren: And it's been great to really come into contact with creatives who have seen beyond what has traditionally been put on paper. And for those artists who, yeah, whether it's in casting or whether it's behind the scenes in wardrobe or in lighting or in the set design, you have these certain people, and these certain people in these particular disciplines, who have been cast by these producers, or these artistic directors who are helping to tell these tried and true stories, as I mentioned, in more dynamic ways with different voices.
And it's really added, I think, even another layer to the work, to the rich work that is Shakespeare. So yeah, it's been a great journey to come into contact with folks who are really expanding, and not afraid to ask those questions or to present that picture to their audience.
Melinda: Yeah. So what made you decide to, kind of, pursue theater professionally and Shakespeare more specifically? Was there a particular moment or turning point?
Warren: Yeah, I was just going to get into it—shout-out the Ball State—Chirp Chirp. But Ball State was my training ground in undergrad. So even as you mentioned, Part Tudor was very supportive of the arts, as many high schools were in Indianapolis at the time and still are.
And, and I think what the small classes that we came from was that kind of nascent seed that was planted. That the ability to be on stage, to tell stories through song, through performing arts, through plays, through music, was the seed. And I think it grew more when I went to Ball State.
And yeah, when you're in that collegiate realm and you're being challenged, you know, we're all struggling with who we are, what we want to be, all that stuff. And it was I think I can one of the points I can narrow in on, was a production of Master Harold and the Boys my freshman year at Ball State, and a senior was putting on this production and it was Athol Fugard, a South African playwright. I was walking through the hallway, I looked on the call board, the bulletin board, and I saw the breakdown of who he needed. I was like, how many African-American, how many black males, are there in the department? You know, what the hell? I mean, it was spring semester of my freshman year, and we did Crucible in the fall before.
You know, So, yeah, I wasn't that far removed, but I still had that, huh? I had that great experience with The Crucible, which was kind of a little nudge. And, and to see this call on the board, I just. It was like, Yeah, I want to try it. And once I auditioned and through that audition process and getting the role, one of the lead characters, it's a three person show, by the way.
And that was, I think, my first intimate, deep dive into a rehearsal process. Into character development, into the ends and outs of--in high school, you usually have a weekend, three performances--we had a whole week. So to stretch and go, woo, you know, you got five days. And we didn't have shows on Monday and Tuesday, but you know, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, that kind of stamina to come to a role. And you're out doing your, going to classes and then coming back in, and the discipline to dig into it over time, that really whetted my appetite even more for what it could be. And I got a little sidetracked. I went into telecommunications, and then I really knuckled down and said, “Wait a minute, what am I really happy doing?”
And one of my advisors had asked me that question, and I came back and, you know, it was a gut check moment. Fourth year, senior year. And it's like, what do I really want to do? And it came back to acting, came back to performing. And I took a fifth year to really complete the credits in the major and everything. And that's, yeah, that's kind of the short, condensed version. But that's yeah, that would starting with that production, that was kind of the…
Melinda: The seed of it all.
Warren: The seed of it all.
Melinda: That's great. What's your favorite role that you've played? I imagine you get asked that a lot in interviews, but..
Warren: Now I…favorite role. I think what allowed me to, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, it's the people who you're around, who you're telling the story with. There was this off-off-Broadway (I did it again) production of Titus Andronicus in New York that I did with New York Shakespeare Exchange, and I was tapped to play the character of Aaron. While traditionally, he is a villain and comes across as such, because of the machinations he, kind of, the character drives in the play. I think that role was one where it was a happy marriage of concept. It was set in Dustbowl era, like Oklahoma. We did it on under, not under, but the stage was adapted under a big top circus tent. And we were vagabond-ish, you know.
But even in telling this story in ancient Rome and translating it to this, to that particular era, that role, playing Aaron, playing this villain, and finding, just mining the text for his humanity and his care of his son, of his child, of the revenge he sought and why he thought he was justified in doing it. I felt like that role was certainly one of my favorites. That play was, that experience was, certainly one of my favorite to be a part of.
Melinda: Yeah, Well, and you touched on something I want to come back to, which I think is so important. It's not just the play right, or the character, it's the ensemble. And, you know, when you're in theatrical production, there's a whole community that comes together and gets really close and really connected for that time, and that makes a huge difference, right?
Warren: Yeah, certainly does. And the director is the driving force of that, or the artistic director, who really sets the tone. And going back to a little bit of your question earlier about, you know, black and brown faces being in that space where it's traditionally Eurocentric. I think it is that rare artistic director, or director, who is able to push beyond that boundary and allow that actor to feel a part of it, while even the character of Aaron is specified as a black Moor. But not necessarily letting the ethnicity be a focal point. But what that character needs and wants is of greater import than, you know, what they look like.
Melinda: Right.
Warren: And yeah, and I'm sure we see their examples in popular culture or whatever, but I know in the theater it's been refreshing to be a part of. And I've seen the other side of it too. But, but with those directors who are able to take the story and not make it about that. And I think it was as much that experience, and working with those directors that allowed that role, even though he's a villain, and even though he initiated some really despicable things. But it allowed it allowed me to have a love for that character, and do what I was able to do with it.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. So there's like a humanizing element, you know, it really strikes me, with any kind of storytelling, there's the specificity of that character, that story, that context, that culture. But then there's a universality of it, right, as well. There's something that we can each relate to in pretty much any character, right? Yeah.
Warren: Yeah. No doubt.
Melinda: Yeah. So that that's a great example. I'm curious, you know, how you prepare for a role. You know, there's so many different types of acting methods and ways of preparing. So what has worked well for you as you take on a new role?
Warren: I think, I know, across the board it is diving into the text. And it's been it's been great to be in a position, at least the last few years, where the audition process occurs and, you know, you get the role, and there's plenty of lead time up to first rehearsal. And there's been this kind of movement, this thing of directors that, you know, “Come in off book.” Like, and then as a professional, I'm sitting here thinking, “Wait a minute, I ain't getting paid, you know?”
Melinda: Right? And for those who don't know, being “off book” means you've memorized all your lines in advance, right?
Warren: Exactly. And you come in to the rehearsal process, you know, and like, so I think when I was younger, you know, you’re out to please people and want to do the thing. But I've kind-of eased up and like, okay, so first things first. If I know I got the role, I'm going to explore other scripts, and what's online, or pick up in the bookstore and read the text and read the play. Because nine times out of 10 with Shakespeare, and not so much contemporary plays, but with Shakespeare, it's cut. So it's been abbreviated. So you come into rehearsal and if you've jumped the gun and done the prep work and you come in, and it’s a whole new script.
Melinda: You're over prepared!
Warren: Yeah, exactly. Wait a minute. So you're having to excise these lines, right? And edit, as you're learning the process. But all that said, it's a for me, it's about getting the text, whatever that text is, and diving in, and the big speeches, usually characters have a big, I think a lot of people refer to them as “purple speeches,” you know, whether it's “To be or not to be” [or] “Friends, Romans, countrymen,” so forth. And those texts, those speeches that everybody knows.
So it’s getting the text, finding those purple speeches, and getting those at least under my belt, being very familiar with them, because what I'm in the space, and you're looking into another pair of eyes, it's going to affect you. It’s going to affect…
Melinda: It's not just words on a page.
Warren: Yeah it's not, It no longer becomes words on a page. And that becomes also a danger of memorizing beforehand, because you have to allow space and room for your fellow actor to give you what you need in order to say what you have to say. And then also for the other artists, because the lighting, they I mean, you go through the process, and once you get on stage, you understand that the lighting designer has this cool effect, or this cool this very—not just cool—but very purposeful thing.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah.
Warren: With the clothes, or with that timing of what's happening in the scene itself. And then that is going to affect how you say what you say. And so yeah, there are all these elements that, of course, layer on and that there’s there's a flexibility that must be held when you when you're holding that text as you're going through the process.
Melinda: Yeah, and I imagine that's what really brings it to life, right? So it's not just this kind of old, rarified thing. It's like a fresh experience every time. I have to go back for a second because I got, like, caught up with the purple speech. Why do they call it purple?
Warren: I think it has to do with purple is the color of royalty.
Melinda: So like those parts that really stand out.
Warren: That really stand out. I mean, the color, the royalty, the best, top, you know, whatever, whatever. And you know, it's the purple speech. I’ve heard that…
Melinda: Well, our color is purple with Syncreate, so, you know.
Both: Yeah, yeah. There we go.
Melinda: So another thing I want to kind of delve into a little bit. So you played football in high school. You were very athletic and, you know, you bring an athleticism to your roles. You talk about it in your bio, which we'll share in the show notes. But you know, in some of the clips that you sent me as we were preparing for this, you know, that these like fight scenes or whatever, you know, you have this really amazingly embodied quality in your work.
And so, this is something that we've talked about at different points on the show, kind of embodiment, and how creativity lives in our bodies. And how you, with your particular background and athletic training, how you bring that to the stage?
Warren: Yes. I feel that that was my that was my bridge for me, of being a competitive athlete, of being in that part of being in that process of practice. Of the, you know, I had a coach say, “You don't practice perfect. There is perfect practice,” in order to perform once that whistle blows in competition. And I think through the years, from the elementary into adolescence, having that program, having that process be a part of my daily life, was something that was just born in me and brought out what was innate, what was already there.
And when I translated that into, when I found the love for theater and the love of performing, and just finding what was just kind of meshing with me in how I approached the work. It was that physicality, it was that preparation, that physical preparation, that I found was my way in, you know, way in to the text. And as I say, I say with the words, but it was even getting the words. And I couldn't just sit at my desk. And I always, always had to be up on my feet, and moving. And sometimes, and in that discovery, in that moving, I would discover, oh, my body naturally went to this place when I came to this phrase. And then that led me to think, well, why am I saying this phrase? Because this is happening to this character, this time, and so forth and so on. And for me it was just that making that character more real, more relatable, more personal, more human, as you mentioned, and being able to use that physicality in those particular ways.
Melinda: Yeah. That's really fascinating. And I hadn't, you know, maybe made the connection between, of course it makes perfect sense, but like the athletic training and then that translating into performance, not only in terms of how we use our bodies, but in terms of just that idea of practice and discipline, right? Yeah. Great.
Warren: Yes. I had a fellow classmate of ours. Catharine [DuBois]. She, she mentioned to me one time—we were out of school—but we were out and she said, “What you doing, you realize is, a walk of faith and courage.”
Melinda: Wow.
Warren: And discipline. And she said this to me years ago, and thinking about it, it's like, yeah, you know, of course, there are a lot of unknowns.
Melinda: Exactly. Absolutely.
Warren: You know, in life in general. But in this career path, it's becoming, it is the becoming, okay with the unknown,or with the uncertainty, and pushing beyond that. And that's where that faith comes in. And that courage to keep going. And that discipline has to be there in order to do that.
Melinda: Yes. I mean, I think it takes courage, you know, that that moment that you described in college, right. That sort of initial spark, and then that moment where you're like, well, what do I really love to do? And am I going to take that leap of faith to pursue this path that is not generally seen as particularly practical? Right. Or same thing with me, with music, there was always that, well, you know, do I pursue music or do I do the practical thing?
And there's a lot of societal pressure, right, to just do the telecom job, or whatever it is. It takes courage to pursue that creative path. You know, I believe we all have creativity within us. But some choose to, you know, to walk down that path professionally, as you have. And you're right, it is persistence, and it is discipline.
Warren: Perseverance.
Melinda: Yes. It doesn't just come, right? Well, and on the, kind-of, physicality note, you know, sometimes you go see a Shakespeare play and, you know, even in these contemporary times, there can be a little bit of this like, rarefied way of speaking or things like that. And I think there's lots of actors out there that, they may be, you know, good, fine actors, but they don't have as much the physical presence, or like there's a stiffness, like “I'm playing, I'm doing Shakespeare, so I have to, you know, be in this particular way.” And it’s not fully embodied. And that's something that just really stood out to me about your performances.
Warren: Thank you. Thank you. And it goes to training as well, because, being in New York, you hear about the big programs of Yale, Juilliard, Harvard, and going to Shakespeare in the Park, the Delacorte [Theater] in Central Park or seeing things around town, you see these individuals who went through these programs. And the training has that, there's a similarity in the training. And I would say that there is a great physicality to it, and how these particular individuals are to take that. You can tell the difference with folks and where they are in the training, and how comfortable and confident they are into using their bodies to express the text in in all that it could and can be.
Melinda: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the same words, said in different ways, can have a completely different impact.
Warren: Sure, sure. Definitely.
Melinda: So, I know you kind-of more recently took a shift from being an actor, into moving into a director role, with a production that you did in Houston. Was that last year? Elijah Broke the Gate. So tell us about that, and what it was like to kind of move into the director role?
Warren: Man, Melinda It was great. It really was. I came into contact with the playwright when I was I was a guest artist at Abilene Christian University, down in Texas. And she had experienced child loss. And out of that grief, and out of that experience, she—there was just this—her catharsis was writing these pieces kind of these choreo-poems, if you will. And she wrote several pieces.
And in her research, she found other creatives in the area who wanted to be involved, and they happened to experience that too, them as well as their partners. So she was kind of she was the spearhead for it. And (excuse me), she you know, [emotional] it comes back to you. She spearheaded this this book. It was in book form, and she turned adapted it into a play.
And we were talking one day I was visiting and she mentioned that she was having trouble nailing down a director. And I had always, you know, I had directed small projects here and there, and worked with my students. But this was an opportunity to be with the professionals and bring this to life. And yes, a little intimidating, not having gone through that experience.
But again, the, even though I was wasn't familiar with the context, or the content [rather]. But the context of loving and losing, of those situations I was familiar with, and the words, and how her and her colleagues put those words together, that really drew me to it. And as I read these pieces I began to envision, you know, and I think there's another step in the process: When I come to a piece and I'm reading it, and all of a sudden it's if there are images in that that just come unbidden. That began to manifest in my mind. And I visualize it as I'm reading, or maybe I read and I pause, and I'm just in this moment of reflection. And if the story is continuing to go, or just kind of playing on the screen of my mind, that's when I know..
Melinda: Yes, this is something good. Yeah.
Warren: And, and it captured me, and it made me sit up and lean in. And a couple of weeks went by after our initial conversation and she circled back to me and she said, you know, if you're still interested, my director didn’t come through. And it wasn't just about a director. She, because of our conversation, she said, I would like you to be on board with this.
And I flew down there and it was a short process, but we dug in and she allowed me to have liberty, because it was all women speaking. And she allowed me the liberty of, as I to her and said, you know, I'm reading this section and I hear a male voice who's expressing this experience, whether it's pain, whether it's joy, or whatever, I hear a male voice, can we do this?
So she allowed me the opportunity to say, okay, we went out and we found a male actor who could…cast. He was great, really solid guy, and we had a child actor, and the rest were women. And there were moments that we found to blend these voices, to where it was a woman speaking, we had, you know, I said, what if the child says this, so on. And I think this speaks to the collaborative art form of theater in itself.
We talked about it. She listened. We kind of tested it out. We got to the rehearsal process. Great child actor. He really was great. And we had him read it. And while the finer points of staging, he still needed to grow into, it was something to hear the text that was usually, you know, in her mind this way. Now we have this adolescent voice saying it, and in it lifted up an it gave it a different dynamic.
And, like I mentioned, just the collaborative art form of theater, it was able to come together. We changed that. And through the whole process, we it really developed into something very fruitful. And the night we performed there was, we had a counselor sit in. Very, of course, sensitive topics and it was great to have a counselor in the house. So after the show, during the Talk Back, we had this counselor present and some women and their partners expressed “Oh, we went through this, and we were able to have a dialogue, to have a dialog and to really explore a little bit, not certainly not a whole therapeutic session. But answer some questions and really have a space where people can express, and see how they were affected by what they saw.
So that, as a director, being able to help shepherd that into being, and help those actors craft their performances, it was great putting on that other hat. And, being in that place of, kind-of, sitting back, and just kind of yeah, “You're on the right track,” you know, being that cheerleader for them.
Melinda: Yeah. That's amazing. And then just getting that immediate feedback, right, with the audience and, and with the therapist. That's amazing.
Warren: Added bonus.
Melinda: Yeah. Well, I'm mindful of the time; it's flying by.
Warren: I'm sure it is.
Melinda: But you mentioned a little earlier, and I wanted to kind of come back to this. You know, you've also done a lot of teaching in different contexts, you know, schools, kids of various ages, university. And so I'm wondering maybe for people starting out or, you know, for the students have you've worked with, what what's the biggest piece of advice or encouragement you might give to, you know, a young actor or somebody, you know, just starting out on their creative path?
Warren: The biggest piece? Say “Yes!” I think looking back, there were instances where I was caught up in in what I thought I needed to be doing, or something of that sense. And it really cut me off of experiences that would have fed, even more, into my artistic growth. And not necessarily talking about regret, but it's like I know there were, just saying yes to opportunities and not putting any judgment on anything. You know, that would be my biggest piece of advice. Yeah, sure.
Melinda: Yeah, yeah. I think especially the young. Yeah! No, that's true. And I think when we're younger, you know, we are, as you said earlier, just sometimes trying to do what we think is right or what we're supposed to be doing, or we're just, you know, learning, learning how life works, Right?
Warren: Yeah.
Melinda: And sometimes that can hold us back in certain ways. So yeah. Yes, I love yes. Saying yes. Yeah. So part of this podcast, we talk about creativity, psychology and spirituality. And sometimes the spiritual element comes forward overtly and, and sometimes not so much. But I am curious if there is a spiritual component to the work for you.
Warren: For me, as I mentioned, about the walk of faith and courage. I think for me the faith comes into the day-to-day and the living of what, a bit of being a creative, what that means for you. I know that I was brought up in the [Black] Christian church and as I've grown, I guess maturing in the faith, and finding what God is for me, or how I recognize faith in the texts that I read. Or faith, you know, you hear the expression of the spirit, “How the spirit moves you.”
Melinda: Yes.
Warren: Or I know my auntie was always fond of saying, “Oh, my spirit just didn't agree with them.”
Melinda: [Laughing] That's a great one!
Warren: You know, I was like, okay you know, and my mom's taken to saying that now. And it's like, not that I don't like this person. Just my spirit don't agree with this person.
Melinda: Right? That’s a great way to say it actually.
Warren: Yeah. I don't, I can't quite put my finger on it. But there is something, and it's like, okay, certainly a more positive, productive way of saying it. Spirits just don't agree, nothing personal. It’s just, you know, we're not in that, you know. you go along your merry way. And I think that that faith element of keeping, of yes, of not necessarily focusing on, ‘cause we can get so easily caught up in the grind of it and the pleasing of it. And you're looking at people, people, people.
And for me, instead of focusing on what's here, focusing on the above, focusing on the beyond, and that there's a greater purpose, and a higher calling, to what we're doing. Because I feel and I think (I heard another actor say this once in a talk-back), that at its best, whether it's Shakespeare or a really good contemporary play, that moment on stage, when you look into another pair of eyes and you're allowing those playwright's words to sing, that is a spiritual moment. That there is a communing that is going on in the space between the performers, and then also that extends out into the audience. So it's kind of almost a triumvirate between performers, the audience and back again. And this communing is for me is spiritual. And the only way to, I feel like, to occupy that space is you can't be caught up in this mess, you know?
The data and stuff, you got to be, you focus on the text. You focus on the vision that the director has set forth. It has to be beyond that. It has to be above that. And that's the only way you're going to get to that place of communion that the audience you know, of course, on one level they pay to see it, but also they've come of their own free will. You're there of your own free will. And we're all, at the end of the day, creating this space where this story is, look, whatever it is, is lifted up. And as human beings, we're there. Theater, all the way back to the Greek time. That's the beauty of it. That's the spirituality of it. And for me, it is rooted in that, and how that spirit moves us to tell these stories in the ways that we do.
Melinda: Beautiful. I think that's a great place to end. I mean, I can't really, you know, just that all art, I think, you know, theater, music, art, it's about expression, it's about communication, it's about connecting. And when you're in that space, it's the best feeling in the world.
Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah, really is. One of, just real quick, that a book we read in grad school, that was another kind of pivot point for me was Rollo May's The Courage to Create.
Melinda: The Courage to Create. Yeah. Yes, wonderful book.
Warren: Yes, yes indeed, indeed it was. I found so much in it that applied to the work and to the life that we were beginning to lead.
Melinda: Yeah, it's a great one. And for those of you out there not familiar, it's a pretty quick read. It's not too thick, but it's very profound.
Warren: Powerful. Impactful.
Melinda: Great. Well, thank you so much for thank you for doing this with me.
Warren: Thank you for having me.
Melinda: We've been talking about doing this for a while. So great to see it actually happen. And if people want to find out more about you and your work, what's the best way?
Warren: The best place is my LinkedIn page under Ren Jackson. I keep that page up with things that I'm currently working on, things that I have worked on, and that's yeah, things that I support, things that I love, and am inspired by as well.
Melinda: Perfect. We'll put a link in the show notes. And thank you so much. I think you're off to Cincinnati next for your next production.
Warren: Yes. Cincinnati Shakespeare Company. The production of Amen Corner by James Baldwin and [then] Julius Caesar.
Melinda: Wonderful. Well, good luck.
Warren: Thank you.
Melinda: Yeah. Awesome.
So for our Creativity Pro-Tip today, I usually do one of these at the end of the episode, a little takeaway that people can try on their own. So, we're not all professional actors, but we've touched on quite a few times in this show, you know, the physicality of creativity and how creativity lives in our body. And we actually touched on this in the previous episode [Episode 19] that we recorded for the show as well. So maybe kind of taking that out into the world, and seeing how like, how do we express ourselves through gesture, through you mentioned looking into another person's eyes, Ren, you know, just to the gaze, the ways that we connect and that we use our physical bodies and the creativity that we have in our physical bodies in order to connect and communicate. And maybe just bringing a little more attention to that in your everyday life and see how it might enhance your interactions.
So at Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. So if you have an idea for a project or a new venture and you'd like our help, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching or join our 2024 Syncreate Coaching Group. We'll be taking people through the creative process from start to finish, using our model of Play, Plan and Produce from our Syncreate book.
And we are recording today from Record ATX Studios in Austin and with Ren in Indianapolis. Thanks again so much for being with us.
And just before we get going today, I do want to mention that we are now on Patreon. So if you are enjoying the podcast and you want to support us with a small monthly contribution, this podcast at this point is entirely self-funded. We don't run commercials, so any support helps and you'll get some exclusive behind the scenes access and calls with me and more. So check it out!
And I am so excited today to have my guest, Warren Jackson, on the show. Warren is a professional actor and you do a lot of Shakespeare, not exclusively Shakespeare, but a lot of Shakespeare.
Warren: Yeah, a fair amount.
Melinda: A fair amount. Well, I want to get into that, but I first want to kind of let folks know how we know each other. So we basically grew up together from a pretty early age. We went to the same school. You started there at age five, is that correct?
Warren: Preschool.
Melinda: Preschool. Park Tudor School, Indianapolis, Indiana. And I came in fifth grade and we graduated together. So we were going through our education that whole time. And we were both in the arts, theater, music. We sang in choirs together. We did theatrical productions, including a production of The Crucible that was quite memorable. So we've both gone on to pursue our creative passions. You went on to get an MFA at the University of Arizona and continued with the acting track, which is amazing.
So there's so much to talk about here, but I kind of want to just dive right in, to, okay, so you're a black man working in the realm of Shakespeare, which is traditionally a very kind of white dominated space. And that's a whole conversation unto itself. But what's that been like for you?
Warren: I think it's been it's been a journey. I think even in this day and age, where, there's been a turn, even though a lot of Shakespeare has been Eurocentric. Yes. I feel that in the past ten, 15 years, there has certainly been a more concerted effort where storytellers have come to the fore that, or people who want to tell these 400-500 year-old stories, in new and more dynamic ways.
Melinda: Yes.
Warren: And it's been great to really come into contact with creatives who have seen beyond what has traditionally been put on paper. And for those artists who, yeah, whether it's in casting or whether it's behind the scenes in wardrobe or in lighting or in the set design, you have these certain people, and these certain people in these particular disciplines, who have been cast by these producers, or these artistic directors who are helping to tell these tried and true stories, as I mentioned, in more dynamic ways with different voices.
And it's really added, I think, even another layer to the work, to the rich work that is Shakespeare. So yeah, it's been a great journey to come into contact with folks who are really expanding, and not afraid to ask those questions or to present that picture to their audience.
Melinda: Yeah. So what made you decide to, kind of, pursue theater professionally and Shakespeare more specifically? Was there a particular moment or turning point?
Warren: Yeah, I was just going to get into it—shout-out the Ball State—Chirp Chirp. But Ball State was my training ground in undergrad. So even as you mentioned, Part Tudor was very supportive of the arts, as many high schools were in Indianapolis at the time and still are.
And, and I think what the small classes that we came from was that kind of nascent seed that was planted. That the ability to be on stage, to tell stories through song, through performing arts, through plays, through music, was the seed. And I think it grew more when I went to Ball State.
And yeah, when you're in that collegiate realm and you're being challenged, you know, we're all struggling with who we are, what we want to be, all that stuff. And it was I think I can one of the points I can narrow in on, was a production of Master Harold and the Boys my freshman year at Ball State, and a senior was putting on this production and it was Athol Fugard, a South African playwright. I was walking through the hallway, I looked on the call board, the bulletin board, and I saw the breakdown of who he needed. I was like, how many African-American, how many black males, are there in the department? You know, what the hell? I mean, it was spring semester of my freshman year, and we did Crucible in the fall before.
You know, So, yeah, I wasn't that far removed, but I still had that, huh? I had that great experience with The Crucible, which was kind of a little nudge. And, and to see this call on the board, I just. It was like, Yeah, I want to try it. And once I auditioned and through that audition process and getting the role, one of the lead characters, it's a three person show, by the way.
And that was, I think, my first intimate, deep dive into a rehearsal process. Into character development, into the ends and outs of--in high school, you usually have a weekend, three performances--we had a whole week. So to stretch and go, woo, you know, you got five days. And we didn't have shows on Monday and Tuesday, but you know, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, that kind of stamina to come to a role. And you're out doing your, going to classes and then coming back in, and the discipline to dig into it over time, that really whetted my appetite even more for what it could be. And I got a little sidetracked. I went into telecommunications, and then I really knuckled down and said, “Wait a minute, what am I really happy doing?”
And one of my advisors had asked me that question, and I came back and, you know, it was a gut check moment. Fourth year, senior year. And it's like, what do I really want to do? And it came back to acting, came back to performing. And I took a fifth year to really complete the credits in the major and everything. And that's, yeah, that's kind of the short, condensed version. But that's yeah, that would starting with that production, that was kind of the…
Melinda: The seed of it all.
Warren: The seed of it all.
Melinda: That's great. What's your favorite role that you've played? I imagine you get asked that a lot in interviews, but..
Warren: Now I…favorite role. I think what allowed me to, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, it's the people who you're around, who you're telling the story with. There was this off-off-Broadway (I did it again) production of Titus Andronicus in New York that I did with New York Shakespeare Exchange, and I was tapped to play the character of Aaron. While traditionally, he is a villain and comes across as such, because of the machinations he, kind of, the character drives in the play. I think that role was one where it was a happy marriage of concept. It was set in Dustbowl era, like Oklahoma. We did it on under, not under, but the stage was adapted under a big top circus tent. And we were vagabond-ish, you know.
But even in telling this story in ancient Rome and translating it to this, to that particular era, that role, playing Aaron, playing this villain, and finding, just mining the text for his humanity and his care of his son, of his child, of the revenge he sought and why he thought he was justified in doing it. I felt like that role was certainly one of my favorites. That play was, that experience was, certainly one of my favorite to be a part of.
Melinda: Yeah, Well, and you touched on something I want to come back to, which I think is so important. It's not just the play right, or the character, it's the ensemble. And, you know, when you're in theatrical production, there's a whole community that comes together and gets really close and really connected for that time, and that makes a huge difference, right?
Warren: Yeah, certainly does. And the director is the driving force of that, or the artistic director, who really sets the tone. And going back to a little bit of your question earlier about, you know, black and brown faces being in that space where it's traditionally Eurocentric. I think it is that rare artistic director, or director, who is able to push beyond that boundary and allow that actor to feel a part of it, while even the character of Aaron is specified as a black Moor. But not necessarily letting the ethnicity be a focal point. But what that character needs and wants is of greater import than, you know, what they look like.
Melinda: Right.
Warren: And yeah, and I'm sure we see their examples in popular culture or whatever, but I know in the theater it's been refreshing to be a part of. And I've seen the other side of it too. But, but with those directors who are able to take the story and not make it about that. And I think it was as much that experience, and working with those directors that allowed that role, even though he's a villain, and even though he initiated some really despicable things. But it allowed it allowed me to have a love for that character, and do what I was able to do with it.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. So there's like a humanizing element, you know, it really strikes me, with any kind of storytelling, there's the specificity of that character, that story, that context, that culture. But then there's a universality of it, right, as well. There's something that we can each relate to in pretty much any character, right? Yeah.
Warren: Yeah. No doubt.
Melinda: Yeah. So that that's a great example. I'm curious, you know, how you prepare for a role. You know, there's so many different types of acting methods and ways of preparing. So what has worked well for you as you take on a new role?
Warren: I think, I know, across the board it is diving into the text. And it's been it's been great to be in a position, at least the last few years, where the audition process occurs and, you know, you get the role, and there's plenty of lead time up to first rehearsal. And there's been this kind of movement, this thing of directors that, you know, “Come in off book.” Like, and then as a professional, I'm sitting here thinking, “Wait a minute, I ain't getting paid, you know?”
Melinda: Right? And for those who don't know, being “off book” means you've memorized all your lines in advance, right?
Warren: Exactly. And you come in to the rehearsal process, you know, and like, so I think when I was younger, you know, you’re out to please people and want to do the thing. But I've kind-of eased up and like, okay, so first things first. If I know I got the role, I'm going to explore other scripts, and what's online, or pick up in the bookstore and read the text and read the play. Because nine times out of 10 with Shakespeare, and not so much contemporary plays, but with Shakespeare, it's cut. So it's been abbreviated. So you come into rehearsal and if you've jumped the gun and done the prep work and you come in, and it’s a whole new script.
Melinda: You're over prepared!
Warren: Yeah, exactly. Wait a minute. So you're having to excise these lines, right? And edit, as you're learning the process. But all that said, it's a for me, it's about getting the text, whatever that text is, and diving in, and the big speeches, usually characters have a big, I think a lot of people refer to them as “purple speeches,” you know, whether it's “To be or not to be” [or] “Friends, Romans, countrymen,” so forth. And those texts, those speeches that everybody knows.
So it’s getting the text, finding those purple speeches, and getting those at least under my belt, being very familiar with them, because what I'm in the space, and you're looking into another pair of eyes, it's going to affect you. It’s going to affect…
Melinda: It's not just words on a page.
Warren: Yeah it's not, It no longer becomes words on a page. And that becomes also a danger of memorizing beforehand, because you have to allow space and room for your fellow actor to give you what you need in order to say what you have to say. And then also for the other artists, because the lighting, they I mean, you go through the process, and once you get on stage, you understand that the lighting designer has this cool effect, or this cool this very—not just cool—but very purposeful thing.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah.
Warren: With the clothes, or with that timing of what's happening in the scene itself. And then that is going to affect how you say what you say. And so yeah, there are all these elements that, of course, layer on and that there’s there's a flexibility that must be held when you when you're holding that text as you're going through the process.
Melinda: Yeah, and I imagine that's what really brings it to life, right? So it's not just this kind of old, rarified thing. It's like a fresh experience every time. I have to go back for a second because I got, like, caught up with the purple speech. Why do they call it purple?
Warren: I think it has to do with purple is the color of royalty.
Melinda: So like those parts that really stand out.
Warren: That really stand out. I mean, the color, the royalty, the best, top, you know, whatever, whatever. And you know, it's the purple speech. I’ve heard that…
Melinda: Well, our color is purple with Syncreate, so, you know.
Both: Yeah, yeah. There we go.
Melinda: So another thing I want to kind of delve into a little bit. So you played football in high school. You were very athletic and, you know, you bring an athleticism to your roles. You talk about it in your bio, which we'll share in the show notes. But you know, in some of the clips that you sent me as we were preparing for this, you know, that these like fight scenes or whatever, you know, you have this really amazingly embodied quality in your work.
And so, this is something that we've talked about at different points on the show, kind of embodiment, and how creativity lives in our bodies. And how you, with your particular background and athletic training, how you bring that to the stage?
Warren: Yes. I feel that that was my that was my bridge for me, of being a competitive athlete, of being in that part of being in that process of practice. Of the, you know, I had a coach say, “You don't practice perfect. There is perfect practice,” in order to perform once that whistle blows in competition. And I think through the years, from the elementary into adolescence, having that program, having that process be a part of my daily life, was something that was just born in me and brought out what was innate, what was already there.
And when I translated that into, when I found the love for theater and the love of performing, and just finding what was just kind of meshing with me in how I approached the work. It was that physicality, it was that preparation, that physical preparation, that I found was my way in, you know, way in to the text. And as I say, I say with the words, but it was even getting the words. And I couldn't just sit at my desk. And I always, always had to be up on my feet, and moving. And sometimes, and in that discovery, in that moving, I would discover, oh, my body naturally went to this place when I came to this phrase. And then that led me to think, well, why am I saying this phrase? Because this is happening to this character, this time, and so forth and so on. And for me it was just that making that character more real, more relatable, more personal, more human, as you mentioned, and being able to use that physicality in those particular ways.
Melinda: Yeah. That's really fascinating. And I hadn't, you know, maybe made the connection between, of course it makes perfect sense, but like the athletic training and then that translating into performance, not only in terms of how we use our bodies, but in terms of just that idea of practice and discipline, right? Yeah. Great.
Warren: Yes. I had a fellow classmate of ours. Catharine [DuBois]. She, she mentioned to me one time—we were out of school—but we were out and she said, “What you doing, you realize is, a walk of faith and courage.”
Melinda: Wow.
Warren: And discipline. And she said this to me years ago, and thinking about it, it's like, yeah, you know, of course, there are a lot of unknowns.
Melinda: Exactly. Absolutely.
Warren: You know, in life in general. But in this career path, it's becoming, it is the becoming, okay with the unknown,or with the uncertainty, and pushing beyond that. And that's where that faith comes in. And that courage to keep going. And that discipline has to be there in order to do that.
Melinda: Yes. I mean, I think it takes courage, you know, that that moment that you described in college, right. That sort of initial spark, and then that moment where you're like, well, what do I really love to do? And am I going to take that leap of faith to pursue this path that is not generally seen as particularly practical? Right. Or same thing with me, with music, there was always that, well, you know, do I pursue music or do I do the practical thing?
And there's a lot of societal pressure, right, to just do the telecom job, or whatever it is. It takes courage to pursue that creative path. You know, I believe we all have creativity within us. But some choose to, you know, to walk down that path professionally, as you have. And you're right, it is persistence, and it is discipline.
Warren: Perseverance.
Melinda: Yes. It doesn't just come, right? Well, and on the, kind-of, physicality note, you know, sometimes you go see a Shakespeare play and, you know, even in these contemporary times, there can be a little bit of this like, rarefied way of speaking or things like that. And I think there's lots of actors out there that, they may be, you know, good, fine actors, but they don't have as much the physical presence, or like there's a stiffness, like “I'm playing, I'm doing Shakespeare, so I have to, you know, be in this particular way.” And it’s not fully embodied. And that's something that just really stood out to me about your performances.
Warren: Thank you. Thank you. And it goes to training as well, because, being in New York, you hear about the big programs of Yale, Juilliard, Harvard, and going to Shakespeare in the Park, the Delacorte [Theater] in Central Park or seeing things around town, you see these individuals who went through these programs. And the training has that, there's a similarity in the training. And I would say that there is a great physicality to it, and how these particular individuals are to take that. You can tell the difference with folks and where they are in the training, and how comfortable and confident they are into using their bodies to express the text in in all that it could and can be.
Melinda: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the same words, said in different ways, can have a completely different impact.
Warren: Sure, sure. Definitely.
Melinda: So, I know you kind-of more recently took a shift from being an actor, into moving into a director role, with a production that you did in Houston. Was that last year? Elijah Broke the Gate. So tell us about that, and what it was like to kind of move into the director role?
Warren: Man, Melinda It was great. It really was. I came into contact with the playwright when I was I was a guest artist at Abilene Christian University, down in Texas. And she had experienced child loss. And out of that grief, and out of that experience, she—there was just this—her catharsis was writing these pieces kind of these choreo-poems, if you will. And she wrote several pieces.
And in her research, she found other creatives in the area who wanted to be involved, and they happened to experience that too, them as well as their partners. So she was kind of she was the spearhead for it. And (excuse me), she you know, [emotional] it comes back to you. She spearheaded this this book. It was in book form, and she turned adapted it into a play.
And we were talking one day I was visiting and she mentioned that she was having trouble nailing down a director. And I had always, you know, I had directed small projects here and there, and worked with my students. But this was an opportunity to be with the professionals and bring this to life. And yes, a little intimidating, not having gone through that experience.
But again, the, even though I was wasn't familiar with the context, or the content [rather]. But the context of loving and losing, of those situations I was familiar with, and the words, and how her and her colleagues put those words together, that really drew me to it. And as I read these pieces I began to envision, you know, and I think there's another step in the process: When I come to a piece and I'm reading it, and all of a sudden it's if there are images in that that just come unbidden. That began to manifest in my mind. And I visualize it as I'm reading, or maybe I read and I pause, and I'm just in this moment of reflection. And if the story is continuing to go, or just kind of playing on the screen of my mind, that's when I know..
Melinda: Yes, this is something good. Yeah.
Warren: And, and it captured me, and it made me sit up and lean in. And a couple of weeks went by after our initial conversation and she circled back to me and she said, you know, if you're still interested, my director didn’t come through. And it wasn't just about a director. She, because of our conversation, she said, I would like you to be on board with this.
And I flew down there and it was a short process, but we dug in and she allowed me to have liberty, because it was all women speaking. And she allowed me the liberty of, as I to her and said, you know, I'm reading this section and I hear a male voice who's expressing this experience, whether it's pain, whether it's joy, or whatever, I hear a male voice, can we do this?
So she allowed me the opportunity to say, okay, we went out and we found a male actor who could…cast. He was great, really solid guy, and we had a child actor, and the rest were women. And there were moments that we found to blend these voices, to where it was a woman speaking, we had, you know, I said, what if the child says this, so on. And I think this speaks to the collaborative art form of theater in itself.
We talked about it. She listened. We kind of tested it out. We got to the rehearsal process. Great child actor. He really was great. And we had him read it. And while the finer points of staging, he still needed to grow into, it was something to hear the text that was usually, you know, in her mind this way. Now we have this adolescent voice saying it, and in it lifted up an it gave it a different dynamic.
And, like I mentioned, just the collaborative art form of theater, it was able to come together. We changed that. And through the whole process, we it really developed into something very fruitful. And the night we performed there was, we had a counselor sit in. Very, of course, sensitive topics and it was great to have a counselor in the house. So after the show, during the Talk Back, we had this counselor present and some women and their partners expressed “Oh, we went through this, and we were able to have a dialogue, to have a dialog and to really explore a little bit, not certainly not a whole therapeutic session. But answer some questions and really have a space where people can express, and see how they were affected by what they saw.
So that, as a director, being able to help shepherd that into being, and help those actors craft their performances, it was great putting on that other hat. And, being in that place of, kind-of, sitting back, and just kind of yeah, “You're on the right track,” you know, being that cheerleader for them.
Melinda: Yeah. That's amazing. And then just getting that immediate feedback, right, with the audience and, and with the therapist. That's amazing.
Warren: Added bonus.
Melinda: Yeah. Well, I'm mindful of the time; it's flying by.
Warren: I'm sure it is.
Melinda: But you mentioned a little earlier, and I wanted to kind of come back to this. You know, you've also done a lot of teaching in different contexts, you know, schools, kids of various ages, university. And so I'm wondering maybe for people starting out or, you know, for the students have you've worked with, what what's the biggest piece of advice or encouragement you might give to, you know, a young actor or somebody, you know, just starting out on their creative path?
Warren: The biggest piece? Say “Yes!” I think looking back, there were instances where I was caught up in in what I thought I needed to be doing, or something of that sense. And it really cut me off of experiences that would have fed, even more, into my artistic growth. And not necessarily talking about regret, but it's like I know there were, just saying yes to opportunities and not putting any judgment on anything. You know, that would be my biggest piece of advice. Yeah, sure.
Melinda: Yeah, yeah. I think especially the young. Yeah! No, that's true. And I think when we're younger, you know, we are, as you said earlier, just sometimes trying to do what we think is right or what we're supposed to be doing, or we're just, you know, learning, learning how life works, Right?
Warren: Yeah.
Melinda: And sometimes that can hold us back in certain ways. So yeah. Yes, I love yes. Saying yes. Yeah. So part of this podcast, we talk about creativity, psychology and spirituality. And sometimes the spiritual element comes forward overtly and, and sometimes not so much. But I am curious if there is a spiritual component to the work for you.
Warren: For me, as I mentioned, about the walk of faith and courage. I think for me the faith comes into the day-to-day and the living of what, a bit of being a creative, what that means for you. I know that I was brought up in the [Black] Christian church and as I've grown, I guess maturing in the faith, and finding what God is for me, or how I recognize faith in the texts that I read. Or faith, you know, you hear the expression of the spirit, “How the spirit moves you.”
Melinda: Yes.
Warren: Or I know my auntie was always fond of saying, “Oh, my spirit just didn't agree with them.”
Melinda: [Laughing] That's a great one!
Warren: You know, I was like, okay you know, and my mom's taken to saying that now. And it's like, not that I don't like this person. Just my spirit don't agree with this person.
Melinda: Right? That’s a great way to say it actually.
Warren: Yeah. I don't, I can't quite put my finger on it. But there is something, and it's like, okay, certainly a more positive, productive way of saying it. Spirits just don't agree, nothing personal. It’s just, you know, we're not in that, you know. you go along your merry way. And I think that that faith element of keeping, of yes, of not necessarily focusing on, ‘cause we can get so easily caught up in the grind of it and the pleasing of it. And you're looking at people, people, people.
And for me, instead of focusing on what's here, focusing on the above, focusing on the beyond, and that there's a greater purpose, and a higher calling, to what we're doing. Because I feel and I think (I heard another actor say this once in a talk-back), that at its best, whether it's Shakespeare or a really good contemporary play, that moment on stage, when you look into another pair of eyes and you're allowing those playwright's words to sing, that is a spiritual moment. That there is a communing that is going on in the space between the performers, and then also that extends out into the audience. So it's kind of almost a triumvirate between performers, the audience and back again. And this communing is for me is spiritual. And the only way to, I feel like, to occupy that space is you can't be caught up in this mess, you know?
The data and stuff, you got to be, you focus on the text. You focus on the vision that the director has set forth. It has to be beyond that. It has to be above that. And that's the only way you're going to get to that place of communion that the audience you know, of course, on one level they pay to see it, but also they've come of their own free will. You're there of your own free will. And we're all, at the end of the day, creating this space where this story is, look, whatever it is, is lifted up. And as human beings, we're there. Theater, all the way back to the Greek time. That's the beauty of it. That's the spirituality of it. And for me, it is rooted in that, and how that spirit moves us to tell these stories in the ways that we do.
Melinda: Beautiful. I think that's a great place to end. I mean, I can't really, you know, just that all art, I think, you know, theater, music, art, it's about expression, it's about communication, it's about connecting. And when you're in that space, it's the best feeling in the world.
Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah, really is. One of, just real quick, that a book we read in grad school, that was another kind of pivot point for me was Rollo May's The Courage to Create.
Melinda: The Courage to Create. Yeah. Yes, wonderful book.
Warren: Yes, yes indeed, indeed it was. I found so much in it that applied to the work and to the life that we were beginning to lead.
Melinda: Yeah, it's a great one. And for those of you out there not familiar, it's a pretty quick read. It's not too thick, but it's very profound.
Warren: Powerful. Impactful.
Melinda: Great. Well, thank you so much for thank you for doing this with me.
Warren: Thank you for having me.
Melinda: We've been talking about doing this for a while. So great to see it actually happen. And if people want to find out more about you and your work, what's the best way?
Warren: The best place is my LinkedIn page under Ren Jackson. I keep that page up with things that I'm currently working on, things that I have worked on, and that's yeah, things that I support, things that I love, and am inspired by as well.
Melinda: Perfect. We'll put a link in the show notes. And thank you so much. I think you're off to Cincinnati next for your next production.
Warren: Yes. Cincinnati Shakespeare Company. The production of Amen Corner by James Baldwin and [then] Julius Caesar.
Melinda: Wonderful. Well, good luck.
Warren: Thank you.
Melinda: Yeah. Awesome.
So for our Creativity Pro-Tip today, I usually do one of these at the end of the episode, a little takeaway that people can try on their own. So, we're not all professional actors, but we've touched on quite a few times in this show, you know, the physicality of creativity and how creativity lives in our body. And we actually touched on this in the previous episode [Episode 19] that we recorded for the show as well. So maybe kind of taking that out into the world, and seeing how like, how do we express ourselves through gesture, through you mentioned looking into another person's eyes, Ren, you know, just to the gaze, the ways that we connect and that we use our physical bodies and the creativity that we have in our physical bodies in order to connect and communicate. And maybe just bringing a little more attention to that in your everyday life and see how it might enhance your interactions.
So at Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. So if you have an idea for a project or a new venture and you'd like our help, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching or join our 2024 Syncreate Coaching Group. We'll be taking people through the creative process from start to finish, using our model of Play, Plan and Produce from our Syncreate book.
And we are recording today from Record ATX Studios in Austin and with Ren in Indianapolis. Thanks again so much for being with us.