THE SYNCREATE PODCAST: EMPOWERING CREATIVITY
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
HOSTED BY MELINDA ROTHOUSE, PHD
WELCOME TO SYNCREATE, WHERE WE EXPLORE THE INTERSECTIONS BETWEEN CREATIVITY,
PSYCHOLOGY,AND SPIRITUALITY. OUR GOAL IS TO DEMYSTIFY THE CREATIVE PROCESS,
AND EXPAND THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CREATIVE.
SUBSCRIBE / FOLLOW US ON SPOTIFY, APPLE PODCASTS, YOUTUBE
OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS
EPISODE 16: CREATIVITY, INNOVATION & LEADERSHIP
WITH ROBERT CLEVE, PHD
listen to the audio episode here:
WATCH THE FULL VIDEO VERSION HERE:
What is creativity and how do we study it?
Did you know you can earn a master’s degree or PhD in psychology with a specialization in creativity?
If you’re curious to learn more about the study of creativity and innovation, this episode is for you.
My guest today is Dr. Robert Cleve, head of the Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership Specialization in the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University. This program at Saybrook is unique because it weaves together the study of creativity with leadership, organizational innovation, and a global perspective. In my conversation with Dr. Cleve, we talk about how he recently updated the curriculum based on his background in international psychology to better address the complex problems we face as a global community. We also discuss everyday creativity, as well as how we can all use our innate creativity not only to survive, but also to heal ourselves and make meaning of our experiences.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, I encourage you to think about how you utilize creativity in your everyday life, sometimes just to get through the day, and to make meaning of your life experiences. Once we recognize and honor the ways we’re constantly using our creativity to navigate through our lives, we can then direct our creativity toward healing, helping others, and maybe even changing the world for the better.
At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea and you’re interested in our help, please reach out to us about 1x1 coaching, or join our Syncreate Six-Month Coaching Group starting in April of 2024. We’ll be guiding you through our Syncreate process to help bring a creative project to life. You can learn more at syncreate.org.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced by Christian Haigis with assistance from Anne Myers Cleary in Spain and Michael Osborne in Austin, Texas. Creative development and video production by Shuja Uddin and Devon Foster at Tishna Films. Artwork by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the psychology of creativity, you might also like our conversations in Episode 8: Grief, Healing, and the Artist’s Life with Anne Myers Cleary, Episode 9: Music and Psychology: "The Pocket" Experience with Dr. Jeff Mims, and Episode 10: Imagination and Creativity with Psychologist and Creativity Coach Dr. Diana Rivera.
Did you know you can earn a master’s degree or PhD in psychology with a specialization in creativity?
If you’re curious to learn more about the study of creativity and innovation, this episode is for you.
My guest today is Dr. Robert Cleve, head of the Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership Specialization in the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University. This program at Saybrook is unique because it weaves together the study of creativity with leadership, organizational innovation, and a global perspective. In my conversation with Dr. Cleve, we talk about how he recently updated the curriculum based on his background in international psychology to better address the complex problems we face as a global community. We also discuss everyday creativity, as well as how we can all use our innate creativity not only to survive, but also to heal ourselves and make meaning of our experiences.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, I encourage you to think about how you utilize creativity in your everyday life, sometimes just to get through the day, and to make meaning of your life experiences. Once we recognize and honor the ways we’re constantly using our creativity to navigate through our lives, we can then direct our creativity toward healing, helping others, and maybe even changing the world for the better.
At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea and you’re interested in our help, please reach out to us about 1x1 coaching, or join our Syncreate Six-Month Coaching Group starting in April of 2024. We’ll be guiding you through our Syncreate process to help bring a creative project to life. You can learn more at syncreate.org.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced by Christian Haigis with assistance from Anne Myers Cleary in Spain and Michael Osborne in Austin, Texas. Creative development and video production by Shuja Uddin and Devon Foster at Tishna Films. Artwork by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the psychology of creativity, you might also like our conversations in Episode 8: Grief, Healing, and the Artist’s Life with Anne Myers Cleary, Episode 9: Music and Psychology: "The Pocket" Experience with Dr. Jeff Mims, and Episode 10: Imagination and Creativity with Psychologist and Creativity Coach Dr. Diana Rivera.
EPISODE VIDEO CLIP:
EPISODE-SPECIFIC HYPERLINKS
Robert Cleve, PhD on LinkedIn
The Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership Program at Saybrook University
Humanistic Psychology
International Psychology
Dr. Ruth Richards
Everyday Creativity
The Four C Model of Creativity
Vlad Glaveneau
Robert’s Glass-Making Website
The Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership Program at Saybrook University
Humanistic Psychology
International Psychology
Dr. Ruth Richards
Everyday Creativity
The Four C Model of Creativity
Vlad Glaveneau
Robert’s Glass-Making Website
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate, where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. Our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
Before we begin today, I wanted to let you know that we're now on Patreon. We'd love your support in continuing to grow the podcast and our Syncreate community. For a small monthly contribution, you'll receive exclusive content and access, including previews of upcoming episodes, monthly calls with me, and more.
So, my guest today is Dr. Robert Cleve, head of the Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership specialization in the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University. That's where I did my PhD and where I'm now adjunct faculty. This program at Saybrook is unique because it weaves together the study of creativity with leadership, organizational innovation, and a global perspective.
In my conversation with Dr. Cleve, we talk about how he recently updated the curriculum based on his background in international psychology to better address the complex problems we face as a global community. We recorded the conversation during a retreat we recently did together in Girona, Spain.
So, welcome, Robert. So good to be here with you in this retreat.
Robert: Thank you. It's been wonderful.
Melinda: Yeah, it's been a real treat. I'm really excited to have this opportunity to chat with you. We've been talking about doing this for a little while now. And here we are together in person, which is great. So this program at Saybrook in Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership: You have spent a lot of time and energy and work kind of reconfiguring this program. So when I graduated in 2018, it was Creativity Studies and now you've kind of reorganized and changed the specialization name to bring in innovation and leadership. I know you've put a lot into this, and I'm really curious to hear more about this change and the structure and the thought process behind it.
Robert: Sure, sure. When I came to Saybrook full-time as the Creativity Studies Lead, that was in January of ‘22. And I was really quite enamored with the program, with the specialization, mostly with the students, who are just absolutely wonderful and energized, and they just crave this knowledge about the creativity field.
One of the things that I was conscious of when I was preparing to accept the position full time was from my international psychology background, we did a lot of multicultural, multinational work, and we really encouraged our students as that was also a PhD program, with the final deliverable being a research dissertation project.
Melinda: And I, and I will just interject there that, you know, when I was looking around for, for programs in psychology focusing on creativity, this is one of the few programs in the country that has this particular focus. So it's quite a unique offering, but maybe didn’t have the visibility.
Robert: Yeah. There was an issue of visibility, but there was also an issue of how Western psychology appreciates the construct of creativity, as it is often tied very much with Masters of Fine Arts programs, and the performance arts, and only the arts, as opposed to broadening that concept to business, to law, to the other areas that we're really conscious are using creativity every day to solve the world's problems. And as we started to marry the international psychology thinking with the Creativity Studies program, I was aware that we weren't giving much traction to the idea of what is being produced out of the program.
Many of our students, had achieved master's degrees in a variety of areas. And what I encourage anyone thinking about the program to explore for themselves is the idea of how do they bring what they already know and enhance that with the PhD as opposed to reconfigure themselves with the PhD. So it's not a total reinvention. And so as the re-envisioning of the specialization began to take place, we were looking at different areas that we could bring into 2023 that included neuroaesthetics, artificial intelligence, ways of creating that are on the edge. And the idea of exploring phenomena that isn't always, you know, embraced by other universities.
The corollary of our Creativity Studies program was the Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health program. So we also enjoy humanistic psychology, existential psychology, and transpersonal psychology, which is the exploration of religion and spirituality. So as we brought those things together along with culture, multinationality, the other aspects that really inform who we are, I was looking for authors who were on the cutting edge of doing that work.
And one of the things that we were really successful with over the summer is collaborating with several of our students on the ideas of how we could reimagine our introductory program and the final course that is taken. So it's the intro course and then the applied course in the specialization. And then there's a variety of electives within that.
Melinda: And this shift in the specialization is near and dear to my heart because, I focused for my research on organizational creativity, and I work with leaders and executives in my work. And I think it's so important, you know, to recognize the creativity that is going on in the world, in the organizational realm, in all these areas that you described.
And that's part of what we're trying to do in this podcast as well, is to kind of shine a light, you know, on all these areas of creativity that are happening in the world, that we might not immediately think, oh, well, that's an example of creativity. But as you say, to deal with and attempt to solve the complex problems that we're facing in the world right now, of which there are so many, we really need creative thinkers.
Robert: Yeah. I think also, you know, the pandemic taught us so many things. And one of those was how creativity was employed on a daily basis to do things, something even as simple as: How do I get my kids to go to school? How am I able to solve that everybody's at home all at the same time?
And I think we don't give ourselves credit often when we are achieving that problem solving, incorporating divergent thinking, and really exploring all of our resources and the things that come to us. So we have several models that we employ as we look at how creativity, innovation, and leadership are taught, you know, to our students.
And if we look at creativity only through the lens of professional creativity or eminent or, the big names of creativity, the Michelangelos and the Da Vincis, we don't take ownership of creativity. And as we explore these things, and we are able to take ownership of how creativity is generated, how it is brought to life, that we can also take responsibility for solving a lot of problems in the world. And, and as we are in this point in the world, of climate change, and political chaos, and all of these different challenges that we're facing, we still need to somehow instill optimism and hope that things can get better and to one of my favorite authors, Vlad Glaveneau, what is possible and not to forget how important and critical that is.
Melinda: Yeah, and I just want to kind of draw attention back to something you mentioned, that sort of notion of everyday creativity, which one of our esteemed faculty who was on my committee, Dr. Ruth Richards, has written extensively about, you know, creativity in these everyday contexts and how we're constantly exercising it just as we go about our daily lives.
Robert: Yeah, our Professor Emerita, Ruth Richards, has really done a deeper dive into the “little c” and the “mini c” aspects of the Four Cs of creativity, which are eminent, pro, mini, and little, but again, we have to give credit for the everyday components that we all use to survive.
Melinda: Absolutely.
Robert: And I think if we all think back on different challenges and different phases of our lives, we become aware of not only our creative aspect with art, and with being able to imagine something through play, through sculpture, through writing, through poetry, all of the different ways that we express creativity, and in our medium of choice. It also is critical that we look at how we use creativity and innovation to survive and to get from day to day to day and still maintain our sanity.
Melinda: Exactly, right! So there's this whole element of, of creativity and healing, which we talked about in a previous episode [Episode 8: Grief, Healing & The Artist's Life with Anne Myers Cleary], and that's something that I think we've been exploring here in this retreat, you know, so many of us here, our creative work is intimately intertwined with our life circumstances, and we're using our creativity to kind of make meaning of our experiences, of the challenges that we encounter in life, and kind of sometimes in playful ways, sometimes in very serious ways, sort of channeling our creativity to heal ourselves and to save ourselves in some way.
Robert: And then to even move it further along the spectrum that we're aware how creativity and innovation impacts the healing of trauma and for even maybe lesser mental health challenges with anxiety, stress, depression. But also how, you know, in my own research, I was exploring the phenomena of how gay youth decide to disclose their identities and through a lens of how we have the option of concealable stigmatized identities. And these youth are probably some of the most creative people, not because they're artistic. But that they survive from the one day to the next and, and they can develop this narrative that allows them to survive without disclosing their identity.
And, you know, when we then traverse back and we allow those narratives to come forward, it’s pretty powerful stuff that we're able to embrace in a way that makes us feel really good as human beings.
Melinda: Yeah, so you mentioned your own research and your background in international psychology. Some of our listeners may not be familiar with that field. So could you share with us a little bit more about what is international psychology and specifically what sort of lens does it bring?
Robert: So when, in working with the students, I was teaching in that program for nine years after I graduated in it. And we were able to employ the idea of cultural humility that as we would go to other countries, my destinations were pretty much Sao Paulo, Brazil; Istanbul, Turkey; and Hong Kong. And I would take students, anywhere from 10 to 15 of them, on immersion experiences into that culture to think about how they might do research and how they might capture the narratives and the lived experiences of their participants.
And we always talk about the participants’ information as a gift that needs to be appreciated, nurtured, and honored in ways that only sometimes we can do. But we also need to be aware that how we interpret that, whether it's through language, when I was in Sao Paulo, Brazil, they speak Portuguese there. And most folks think, first of all, that they speak Spanish in Brazil. But negotiating that language was key to being successful and working within the indigenous psychology of not tribal nations, but how Brazil has made psychology their own. And that lens had to be honored when I was doing my interpretation.
So luckily I had someone on my committee that was faculty at the University of Sao Paulo. And as we explored different areas of the world, one of the criteria was, it couldn't be a Western-informed nation. So we would always encourage students to think about how they could access these different groups, cultural groups, honor how you enter into those groups, which is often a negotiation with folks.
I know I had probably one of the most intense interviews of my life in trying to explain why I wanted to come to Brazil and do this work. Somehow, I evidently succeeded, which was wonderful. The gift of what those young men gave me, of their stories, really enhanced the research, and it allowed me to pull thematic material that also then informed me going to Istanbul and recreating that study, a grounded theory study, with Muslim youth.
Melinda: Uh huh. In a very different context.
Robert: Because religion was the key theme that we were going through. So the international psychology program really was a lens globally and I always thought of it more as an opportunity that we were offering to our students that they may not get in any other kind of psychology program.
Melinda: Yeah, so coming from the international psychology background into this world of creativity studies, you have a unique perspective on things. So I'm curious what you have found most salient or most helpful in thinking about the study of creativity.
Robert: Of creativity, innovation and leadership. And we don't want to minimize the impact that the leadership piece has on that. And I think often what we're helping the students do is assess their leadership skills and also to encourage them to use those skills in a way that can move them in a direction of, or put them on a trajectory for, their employment, that offers so much more than it looking like creativity studies on their transcript.
It doesn't show up on their diploma, but you know, they can share that with potential employers. But, you and I actually had a really important conversation about a focus for leadership in which we were using particular authors that really enhanced the two courses that we wrote.
Melinda: Yeah. And I think this topic of leadership, you know, I work with a lot of leaders and executives, but I also emphasize that we all exercise leadership in different ways, whether it's through formal roles or in our lives and our families and our communities, you know, whatever we may be doing, leadership looks many different ways. It's not just, you know, being a CEO.
Robert: Yeah, and as we even were looking over the course of this week in Spain, and you were guiding us on not only the work we're doing, but what the intent is behind that work. And that ability to stop and self-reflect is so critical and so important.
And the coaching work that you do in addition to that, where you're able to help folks to look forward to the future instead of sometimes the dread of, gosh, what is tomorrow going to bring? And taking control over some of that and making the decision to do something like coming to Spain to do a creative writing retreat. It isn't the highest priority in the world, but it's so powerful and it was such a wonderful opportunity and I can't thank you enough for doing that.
Melinda: Oh, thank you. It's great to hear that and yeah, I think it's so important to, you know, find whatever ways we can in our lives, whatever's possible, given our circumstances, to take those moments to step back and reflect. Whether it's, you know, just a weekend away or a few hours away, to get perspective on our lives and how hard that is when we're just sort of in the weeds of things, you know.
Robert: Yeah, and, and returning again to Dr. Glaveneau's work and his perspectival worlds that he envisions, and how even when we're in the weeds and we're in the muck of life, if we can take a moment to look at the bigger picture and step above that, not in the sense of being above it, but just having a different lens. So we can look at it holistically, which is one of the hallmarks of humanistic psychology. We're looking at the entire person, not just their pathology or their challenges. It's so important.
Melinda: Yeah. So, to conclude our conversation today, I want to touch into your own personal creativity. So, I know you're a glass artist. You work with stained glass and fused glass. And I guess I'm curious, you know, we've been talking throughout this week about each of our own kind of personal and professional creativity. What does that look like for you? Like, how does your glass work relate to the other work you do in the world and vice versa?
Robert: I think one of the most important things was on a very completely personal level. I enjoy being able to use the medium of glass because of the textures of it and the possibilities of it. The way we use stained glass through the different techniques of creating an object or the fused glass technique, which even gives us more, it's not blowing glass. But the most powerful aspect that I've learned since living in Colorado in the mountains, is that I'm in a community that during the pandemic, I kept trying to think, how can we embrace our creativity in a way and how can I share what I know about glass with other folks?
And so I used Nextdoor, and I just posted something and said, “Hey, I'm thinking about doing a stained glass class, you know, is anybody interested?” Well, we had enough people for three classes almost immediately. So I think people were just hungry for something that got them out of their houses. But what I was most surprised by is the thirst for folks to be able to do something, whether it's craft or creativity and innovate.
And the spark that I would see is that I would give them the pattern choices. They could choose from four or five patterns. And inevitably they would pick the same one or two, the groups. But while we were doing the building of the stained glass windows, they would often say, well, I wonder if I, if I did this, or I had an idea about doing something with my cat, you know, in it and something like that.
And that's when you see the realization of the spark of creativity and they do own it, no matter how much protestation there was that “I'm not a creative person,” right? And we see that all the time. We see that in the research of our students and the ideas that they come up with. And we were talking about earlier that no matter the plethora of books that have been written, there's still more to say. There's still more to talk about. Which is really wonderful for academia and for humankind.
Melinda: So, if people are interested in learning more about the program in Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership and your own work, how might they find you?
Robert: So, my email for Saybrook is simply rcleve, like Cleveland, the first part of it. So [email protected]. And my glass business, you can find the website at Glass CO (Colorado), glassco.org.
Melinda: Okay. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with me today and so great to be here with you in Spain. And we'll provide links to the websites and email that Robert mentioned in our show notes as well.
Robert: Thank you.
Melinda: Thank you so much.
We talked today about the study of creativity, and how vital it is in addressing the complex problems of the world, as well as how we each use creative problem solving in our daily lives. So for our Creativity Pro-Tip today, I encourage you to think about how you utilize creativity in your everyday life, sometimes maybe just to get through the day, and to make meaning of your life experiences. Once we recognize and honor the ways we’re constantly using our creativity to navigate through our lives, we can then direct our creativity toward healing, helping others, and maybe even changing the world for the better.
At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea and you’re interested in our help, please reach out to us about 1x1 coaching, or join our Syncreate Six-Month Coaching Group starting in April of 2024. We’ll be guiding you through our Syncreate process to help bring a creative project to life. You can learn more at syncreate.org.
This episode was produced by Christian Haigis with assistance by Mike Osborne. Follow Syncreate on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Before we begin today, I wanted to let you know that we're now on Patreon. We'd love your support in continuing to grow the podcast and our Syncreate community. For a small monthly contribution, you'll receive exclusive content and access, including previews of upcoming episodes, monthly calls with me, and more.
So, my guest today is Dr. Robert Cleve, head of the Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership specialization in the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University. That's where I did my PhD and where I'm now adjunct faculty. This program at Saybrook is unique because it weaves together the study of creativity with leadership, organizational innovation, and a global perspective.
In my conversation with Dr. Cleve, we talk about how he recently updated the curriculum based on his background in international psychology to better address the complex problems we face as a global community. We recorded the conversation during a retreat we recently did together in Girona, Spain.
So, welcome, Robert. So good to be here with you in this retreat.
Robert: Thank you. It's been wonderful.
Melinda: Yeah, it's been a real treat. I'm really excited to have this opportunity to chat with you. We've been talking about doing this for a little while now. And here we are together in person, which is great. So this program at Saybrook in Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership: You have spent a lot of time and energy and work kind of reconfiguring this program. So when I graduated in 2018, it was Creativity Studies and now you've kind of reorganized and changed the specialization name to bring in innovation and leadership. I know you've put a lot into this, and I'm really curious to hear more about this change and the structure and the thought process behind it.
Robert: Sure, sure. When I came to Saybrook full-time as the Creativity Studies Lead, that was in January of ‘22. And I was really quite enamored with the program, with the specialization, mostly with the students, who are just absolutely wonderful and energized, and they just crave this knowledge about the creativity field.
One of the things that I was conscious of when I was preparing to accept the position full time was from my international psychology background, we did a lot of multicultural, multinational work, and we really encouraged our students as that was also a PhD program, with the final deliverable being a research dissertation project.
Melinda: And I, and I will just interject there that, you know, when I was looking around for, for programs in psychology focusing on creativity, this is one of the few programs in the country that has this particular focus. So it's quite a unique offering, but maybe didn’t have the visibility.
Robert: Yeah. There was an issue of visibility, but there was also an issue of how Western psychology appreciates the construct of creativity, as it is often tied very much with Masters of Fine Arts programs, and the performance arts, and only the arts, as opposed to broadening that concept to business, to law, to the other areas that we're really conscious are using creativity every day to solve the world's problems. And as we started to marry the international psychology thinking with the Creativity Studies program, I was aware that we weren't giving much traction to the idea of what is being produced out of the program.
Many of our students, had achieved master's degrees in a variety of areas. And what I encourage anyone thinking about the program to explore for themselves is the idea of how do they bring what they already know and enhance that with the PhD as opposed to reconfigure themselves with the PhD. So it's not a total reinvention. And so as the re-envisioning of the specialization began to take place, we were looking at different areas that we could bring into 2023 that included neuroaesthetics, artificial intelligence, ways of creating that are on the edge. And the idea of exploring phenomena that isn't always, you know, embraced by other universities.
The corollary of our Creativity Studies program was the Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health program. So we also enjoy humanistic psychology, existential psychology, and transpersonal psychology, which is the exploration of religion and spirituality. So as we brought those things together along with culture, multinationality, the other aspects that really inform who we are, I was looking for authors who were on the cutting edge of doing that work.
And one of the things that we were really successful with over the summer is collaborating with several of our students on the ideas of how we could reimagine our introductory program and the final course that is taken. So it's the intro course and then the applied course in the specialization. And then there's a variety of electives within that.
Melinda: And this shift in the specialization is near and dear to my heart because, I focused for my research on organizational creativity, and I work with leaders and executives in my work. And I think it's so important, you know, to recognize the creativity that is going on in the world, in the organizational realm, in all these areas that you described.
And that's part of what we're trying to do in this podcast as well, is to kind of shine a light, you know, on all these areas of creativity that are happening in the world, that we might not immediately think, oh, well, that's an example of creativity. But as you say, to deal with and attempt to solve the complex problems that we're facing in the world right now, of which there are so many, we really need creative thinkers.
Robert: Yeah. I think also, you know, the pandemic taught us so many things. And one of those was how creativity was employed on a daily basis to do things, something even as simple as: How do I get my kids to go to school? How am I able to solve that everybody's at home all at the same time?
And I think we don't give ourselves credit often when we are achieving that problem solving, incorporating divergent thinking, and really exploring all of our resources and the things that come to us. So we have several models that we employ as we look at how creativity, innovation, and leadership are taught, you know, to our students.
And if we look at creativity only through the lens of professional creativity or eminent or, the big names of creativity, the Michelangelos and the Da Vincis, we don't take ownership of creativity. And as we explore these things, and we are able to take ownership of how creativity is generated, how it is brought to life, that we can also take responsibility for solving a lot of problems in the world. And, and as we are in this point in the world, of climate change, and political chaos, and all of these different challenges that we're facing, we still need to somehow instill optimism and hope that things can get better and to one of my favorite authors, Vlad Glaveneau, what is possible and not to forget how important and critical that is.
Melinda: Yeah, and I just want to kind of draw attention back to something you mentioned, that sort of notion of everyday creativity, which one of our esteemed faculty who was on my committee, Dr. Ruth Richards, has written extensively about, you know, creativity in these everyday contexts and how we're constantly exercising it just as we go about our daily lives.
Robert: Yeah, our Professor Emerita, Ruth Richards, has really done a deeper dive into the “little c” and the “mini c” aspects of the Four Cs of creativity, which are eminent, pro, mini, and little, but again, we have to give credit for the everyday components that we all use to survive.
Melinda: Absolutely.
Robert: And I think if we all think back on different challenges and different phases of our lives, we become aware of not only our creative aspect with art, and with being able to imagine something through play, through sculpture, through writing, through poetry, all of the different ways that we express creativity, and in our medium of choice. It also is critical that we look at how we use creativity and innovation to survive and to get from day to day to day and still maintain our sanity.
Melinda: Exactly, right! So there's this whole element of, of creativity and healing, which we talked about in a previous episode [Episode 8: Grief, Healing & The Artist's Life with Anne Myers Cleary], and that's something that I think we've been exploring here in this retreat, you know, so many of us here, our creative work is intimately intertwined with our life circumstances, and we're using our creativity to kind of make meaning of our experiences, of the challenges that we encounter in life, and kind of sometimes in playful ways, sometimes in very serious ways, sort of channeling our creativity to heal ourselves and to save ourselves in some way.
Robert: And then to even move it further along the spectrum that we're aware how creativity and innovation impacts the healing of trauma and for even maybe lesser mental health challenges with anxiety, stress, depression. But also how, you know, in my own research, I was exploring the phenomena of how gay youth decide to disclose their identities and through a lens of how we have the option of concealable stigmatized identities. And these youth are probably some of the most creative people, not because they're artistic. But that they survive from the one day to the next and, and they can develop this narrative that allows them to survive without disclosing their identity.
And, you know, when we then traverse back and we allow those narratives to come forward, it’s pretty powerful stuff that we're able to embrace in a way that makes us feel really good as human beings.
Melinda: Yeah, so you mentioned your own research and your background in international psychology. Some of our listeners may not be familiar with that field. So could you share with us a little bit more about what is international psychology and specifically what sort of lens does it bring?
Robert: So when, in working with the students, I was teaching in that program for nine years after I graduated in it. And we were able to employ the idea of cultural humility that as we would go to other countries, my destinations were pretty much Sao Paulo, Brazil; Istanbul, Turkey; and Hong Kong. And I would take students, anywhere from 10 to 15 of them, on immersion experiences into that culture to think about how they might do research and how they might capture the narratives and the lived experiences of their participants.
And we always talk about the participants’ information as a gift that needs to be appreciated, nurtured, and honored in ways that only sometimes we can do. But we also need to be aware that how we interpret that, whether it's through language, when I was in Sao Paulo, Brazil, they speak Portuguese there. And most folks think, first of all, that they speak Spanish in Brazil. But negotiating that language was key to being successful and working within the indigenous psychology of not tribal nations, but how Brazil has made psychology their own. And that lens had to be honored when I was doing my interpretation.
So luckily I had someone on my committee that was faculty at the University of Sao Paulo. And as we explored different areas of the world, one of the criteria was, it couldn't be a Western-informed nation. So we would always encourage students to think about how they could access these different groups, cultural groups, honor how you enter into those groups, which is often a negotiation with folks.
I know I had probably one of the most intense interviews of my life in trying to explain why I wanted to come to Brazil and do this work. Somehow, I evidently succeeded, which was wonderful. The gift of what those young men gave me, of their stories, really enhanced the research, and it allowed me to pull thematic material that also then informed me going to Istanbul and recreating that study, a grounded theory study, with Muslim youth.
Melinda: Uh huh. In a very different context.
Robert: Because religion was the key theme that we were going through. So the international psychology program really was a lens globally and I always thought of it more as an opportunity that we were offering to our students that they may not get in any other kind of psychology program.
Melinda: Yeah, so coming from the international psychology background into this world of creativity studies, you have a unique perspective on things. So I'm curious what you have found most salient or most helpful in thinking about the study of creativity.
Robert: Of creativity, innovation and leadership. And we don't want to minimize the impact that the leadership piece has on that. And I think often what we're helping the students do is assess their leadership skills and also to encourage them to use those skills in a way that can move them in a direction of, or put them on a trajectory for, their employment, that offers so much more than it looking like creativity studies on their transcript.
It doesn't show up on their diploma, but you know, they can share that with potential employers. But, you and I actually had a really important conversation about a focus for leadership in which we were using particular authors that really enhanced the two courses that we wrote.
Melinda: Yeah. And I think this topic of leadership, you know, I work with a lot of leaders and executives, but I also emphasize that we all exercise leadership in different ways, whether it's through formal roles or in our lives and our families and our communities, you know, whatever we may be doing, leadership looks many different ways. It's not just, you know, being a CEO.
Robert: Yeah, and as we even were looking over the course of this week in Spain, and you were guiding us on not only the work we're doing, but what the intent is behind that work. And that ability to stop and self-reflect is so critical and so important.
And the coaching work that you do in addition to that, where you're able to help folks to look forward to the future instead of sometimes the dread of, gosh, what is tomorrow going to bring? And taking control over some of that and making the decision to do something like coming to Spain to do a creative writing retreat. It isn't the highest priority in the world, but it's so powerful and it was such a wonderful opportunity and I can't thank you enough for doing that.
Melinda: Oh, thank you. It's great to hear that and yeah, I think it's so important to, you know, find whatever ways we can in our lives, whatever's possible, given our circumstances, to take those moments to step back and reflect. Whether it's, you know, just a weekend away or a few hours away, to get perspective on our lives and how hard that is when we're just sort of in the weeds of things, you know.
Robert: Yeah, and, and returning again to Dr. Glaveneau's work and his perspectival worlds that he envisions, and how even when we're in the weeds and we're in the muck of life, if we can take a moment to look at the bigger picture and step above that, not in the sense of being above it, but just having a different lens. So we can look at it holistically, which is one of the hallmarks of humanistic psychology. We're looking at the entire person, not just their pathology or their challenges. It's so important.
Melinda: Yeah. So, to conclude our conversation today, I want to touch into your own personal creativity. So, I know you're a glass artist. You work with stained glass and fused glass. And I guess I'm curious, you know, we've been talking throughout this week about each of our own kind of personal and professional creativity. What does that look like for you? Like, how does your glass work relate to the other work you do in the world and vice versa?
Robert: I think one of the most important things was on a very completely personal level. I enjoy being able to use the medium of glass because of the textures of it and the possibilities of it. The way we use stained glass through the different techniques of creating an object or the fused glass technique, which even gives us more, it's not blowing glass. But the most powerful aspect that I've learned since living in Colorado in the mountains, is that I'm in a community that during the pandemic, I kept trying to think, how can we embrace our creativity in a way and how can I share what I know about glass with other folks?
And so I used Nextdoor, and I just posted something and said, “Hey, I'm thinking about doing a stained glass class, you know, is anybody interested?” Well, we had enough people for three classes almost immediately. So I think people were just hungry for something that got them out of their houses. But what I was most surprised by is the thirst for folks to be able to do something, whether it's craft or creativity and innovate.
And the spark that I would see is that I would give them the pattern choices. They could choose from four or five patterns. And inevitably they would pick the same one or two, the groups. But while we were doing the building of the stained glass windows, they would often say, well, I wonder if I, if I did this, or I had an idea about doing something with my cat, you know, in it and something like that.
And that's when you see the realization of the spark of creativity and they do own it, no matter how much protestation there was that “I'm not a creative person,” right? And we see that all the time. We see that in the research of our students and the ideas that they come up with. And we were talking about earlier that no matter the plethora of books that have been written, there's still more to say. There's still more to talk about. Which is really wonderful for academia and for humankind.
Melinda: So, if people are interested in learning more about the program in Creativity, Innovation, and Leadership and your own work, how might they find you?
Robert: So, my email for Saybrook is simply rcleve, like Cleveland, the first part of it. So [email protected]. And my glass business, you can find the website at Glass CO (Colorado), glassco.org.
Melinda: Okay. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with me today and so great to be here with you in Spain. And we'll provide links to the websites and email that Robert mentioned in our show notes as well.
Robert: Thank you.
Melinda: Thank you so much.
We talked today about the study of creativity, and how vital it is in addressing the complex problems of the world, as well as how we each use creative problem solving in our daily lives. So for our Creativity Pro-Tip today, I encourage you to think about how you utilize creativity in your everyday life, sometimes maybe just to get through the day, and to make meaning of your life experiences. Once we recognize and honor the ways we’re constantly using our creativity to navigate through our lives, we can then direct our creativity toward healing, helping others, and maybe even changing the world for the better.
At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea and you’re interested in our help, please reach out to us about 1x1 coaching, or join our Syncreate Six-Month Coaching Group starting in April of 2024. We’ll be guiding you through our Syncreate process to help bring a creative project to life. You can learn more at syncreate.org.
This episode was produced by Christian Haigis with assistance by Mike Osborne. Follow Syncreate on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn, where you can also find out more about all we do at Syncreate. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
